T-3 headlamps vs CRAPPY batteries - Page 3

Bhigdog · April 9th, 2009

With all respect you boys should be concerned about just what slippery slope you mean when you use words like "correct", "original", and "as delivered" vis-a-vis restorations. Carring it to it's logical extreme, as you seem to desire, is just plain not doable unless ONLY OEM parts were used.
Clearcoat/base coat? Sorry, only alkyd enamel or lacquer will do. Neoprene hoses? sorry natural gum rubber needed. Nylon bias ply tires? Say, weren't those tires rayon or cotton? Hey wait a minute, this tar on the "correct" tar top battery only LOOKS like tar. Huh!
That's mighty nice show chrome, doesn't look anything like it did from the factory though. Wow, look here. There's NO overspray splattered everywhere. What, no undercoating smearing that nicely detailed fire wall, what gives? Oh but look, there are those cute crayon marks. Look at the door margins all nice and "correct" and the trim allllll lines up, "correctly", just like new. NOT. Speaking of trim it's nice that it's all buffed to a mirror finish. Just like the factory did "correctly".
All the graphics and instructions silk screened on rather than stickums? I'm sure they are or they wouldn't be "correct". Need new ball or roller bearings? Better get the old ones with inferior steel.
Horse hair rugs or upholstery? Damn the expense.
Sorry fellas but you're just deluding yourself if you think "original", "correct" or "as delivered" is possible much less desireable..........Bob

SolidAxle · April 9th, 2009

Originally Posted By: Bhigdog

With all respect you boys should be concerned about just what slippery slope you mean when you use words like "correct", "original", and "as delivered" vis-a-vis restorations. Carring it to it's logical extreme, as you seem to desire, is just plain not doable unless ONLY OEM parts were used.
Clearcoat/base coat? Sorry, only alkyd enamel or lacquer will do. Neoprene hoses? sorry natural gum rubber needed. Nylon bias ply tires? Say, weren't those tires rayon or cotton? Hey wait a minute, this tar on the "correct" tar top battery only LOOKS like tar. Huh!
That's mighty nice show chrome, doesn't look anything like it did from the factory though. Wow, look here. There's NO overspray splattered everywhere. What, no undercoating smearing that nicely detailed fire wall, what gives? Oh but look, there are those cute crayon marks. Look at the door margins all nice and "correct" and the trim allllll lines up, "correctly", just like new. NOT. Speaking of trim it's nice that it's all buffed to a mirror finish. Just like the factory did "correctly".
All the graphics and instructions silk screened on rather than stickums? I'm sure they are or they wouldn't be "correct". Need new ball or roller bearings? Better get the old ones with inferior steel.
Horse hair rugs or upholstery? Damn the expense.
Sorry fellas but you're just deluding yourself if you think "original", "correct" or "as delivered" is possible much less desireable..........Bob

I wasn't necessarily referring to restorations or restored cars per se. Let's use an all original, unrestored example since you apparently have some sort of a restoration bias.

Two identical, unrestored original vehicles are on the show field in near identical condition. Car #1 is completely authentic with its original, factory installed battery, headlights, hoses, belts, and clamps. Car #2 has an era correct non-authentic replacement battery, era correct non-authentic belts, hoses, and clamps and era correct headlights of a non-authentic brand. All other things being equal, both cars would score the same, even though car #1 were a more exact example of "how the factiory delivered the car".

If however, car #1 had one of its original headlights replaced with an era correct but non-authentic brand (the same brand that is in car #2) it would receive a judging point deduction for having mis-matched headlights and would score lower than car #2. This hardly seems logical. This is the basis of our consternation not the merits of restoration versus originality.

Actually your argument about originality is perfectly aligned with most Marque Specific clubs that I belong to. At NCRS for example, materials that are at all distinguishable from original receive a judging point deduction, simulated tar top batteries get a judging point deduction, over-restored body panels receive a judging point deduction, obvious non-original base/clear would receive a judging point deduction, incorrect carpeting materials would receive a judging point deduction, reproductions that are in any way distinquishable from original receive judging point deductions... even Lectric Limited's T-3 reproductions are point deducted at NCRS because they contain the DOT marking on the lenses and the originals did not.

At AACA there may not be a deduction for these restoration issues or items but there is no point advantage either. Incorrect restoration however is deducted. It would seem that attempting to preserve or reproduce the correct appearance, material, texture, part, or manufacturing techniques has merit in the preservation of the vehicle. So what does this have to do with permitting NAPA batteries in lieu of Delco or FoMoCo or GE headlights in lieu of Guide T-3's? How does this at all relate to any representation of how the manufacturer delivered the vehicle? Heck using that logic, on any non original car should just stick an Optima battery in, put radial tires on, convert to disc brakes, add air shocks, install an electric fuel pump, and throw in an iPOD enabled radio, stick it on a grassy field or parking lot and call it a car show..... Oh wait, they already do that.... its called a cruise in!

Original, unrestored cars are by far the most valuable comodity in this hobby. They are only original once, thus the unrestored early Olds that sold for over $1M at Hershey a few years ago. Second to an original, a closely represented, correctly and acurately restored example using NOS, used reconditioned, or quality repop parts is far more desireable to me than a vehicle that is made up of parts that were never used by the manufacturer and don't even look the same as originals, but are perhaps cheaper or easier to come by.

Biscayne John · April 9th, 2009

Bhigdog,
"AS DELIVERED" are the words that the AACA uses in their judging schools

Bhigdog · April 9th, 2009

Quote:

you apparently have some sort of a restoration bias.

I agree with everything you say except the above quote. Not sure where that came from. My rant against the currently available repro batteries is not that "NAPA" batteries should be allowed simply because they are "better". My position is they should be allowed simply to break the strangle hold the repro battery people have. I don't like being the recipient of unwanted financial intercourse.....Bob

Bhigdog · April 9th, 2009

Quote:

AS DELIVERED" are the words that the AACA uses in their judging schools

And that is widely ignored, John, as my longish post above illustrates. Hey guys, I really don't have any problem with any of the judging rules any of the clubs have. I'll play the game as it's played and I'll do OK, as my cars judging credits attest. I know how to play the game. I just would like to see the clubs flex thier muscles a bit to help bring some repro people to improve their products. I think that's a worthy idea.
John, you've had good luck with your batteries as have some others. Many more do not............Bob

impala · April 10th, 2009

Originally Posted By: Bhigdog

[quote]
That's the reason the junk repro battery deal is a sore point with me. I have $1000 of totally junk batteries sitting under my bench for no good reason. I don't like being forced to p**s money down a rat hole for no good reason. Respectfully....Bob

You can put those junk batteries to good use. I read a writeup but can't remember where. You can cut the top off, remove the junk guts, put an Optima in the case (or any other quality battery), connect the terminals to the existing top posts, glue the top back on and you have a reliable battery that looks original.
impala

Bhigdog · April 10th, 2009

That's the ultimate plan, thanks...........Bob

Starfire61 · April 10th, 2009

[/quote]
You can put those junk batteries to good use. I read a writeup but can't remember where. You can cut the top off, remove the junk guts, put an Optima in the case (or any other quality battery), connect the terminals to the existing top posts, glue the top back on and you have a reliable battery that looks original.
impala[/quote]

Does anyone have any tips on how to do this? I'd like to know what Optima batteries would fit within a group 60 case & how to do the top terminal connections.

I have an expensive repro Delco group 60 battery that died after a year & a half. At last year's Olds Nationals I did exactly what Bob described- drove the car onto the field with the 7 year old NAPA battery & then swapped in the dead one. I'll be damned if I waste another $300 on another POS repro.

Chuck

Bhigdog · April 10th, 2009

Here's my tentative plan, Chuck. Drain the battery completely and refill several times with a baking soda solution to neutralize any acid. I'll cut wherever the top hold down will hide the incision. Cut the guts away leaving the posts intact. Drill and tap 5/16-18 holes in the bottom of the posts to bolt connectors to. Make short connector cables from the Optima to the posts. There must be enough clearance in the case to accomodate the curled up connector cables.
Of course if someones actually performed the surgery I'd like to hear about it.
Or......... the Clubs could just make the POS repro's optional and eliminate the phoney monkey motion......Bob

Biscayne John · April 10th, 2009

But Bob, why did I and others have good luck? Most time when people have a problem with a repro battery they are over charging it
I think it would be easier to just put the shell in on the show field and remove your other battery
John