Question in Lebanon!

R W Burgess · June 15th, 2009

We had our AACA Round table at Lebanon on Friday, just before the judging school. If you've ever been to a national meet and missed the Round Table, you missed out. Current events and updates are shared with all and you can ask questions of all Board Members present, of which there were many in Tennessee. Sometimes the questions are tough, but I didn't see either Board Member run and hide! [img]<>/grin.gif[/img]

I was surprised to hear that the 10 point spread rule has been brought up again. I assume the board is questioning members about this. I'm not real clear on the details. I'll say from my point of view as a very green judge, I like the way the rules are now. I'm kind of old fashioned, you know? I hate change. The Internet drives me crazy. By the time I figure something out, they change it....sorry.... make it "BETTER", they claim. [img]<>/grin.gif[/img] (Ran into a fellow last week that said, he wouldn't let his PC update changes! [img]<>/smile.gif[/img] )

Anyway, I was just surprised that we were even considering this idea. Again, personally, I say, if the system works, why change it? To encourage new members? Maybe so, but it would be easier, in my opinion, to show them the advantages of what we have to offer.

I'd say our system works pretty good. It was really cool to see all of those show car transport trailers headed back east and north on I-40 and I-81 yesterday. Yes, our show car trailers outnumbered those big truck carriers. It made my chest swell with pride to know I was a part of this great organization. I'd say, we're being noticed!

Spread the Word! [img]<>/wink.gif[/img]

Wayne

ex98thdrill · June 15th, 2009

Well if people hate the 10 point spread, they'll really be crying the blues when they get to an AGNM and get bitten by the 5 point spread. With the AGNM you can score a 394 and lose a 1st AGNM even though you have earned enough points for a Senior AGNM. The nice thing about winning a 1st AGNM award is knowing that the issue with competition is over, and the only one to beat at that point is yourself.

The problem is when you show up to a meet to have your vehicle point judged, you'd best be at the top of your game. If a 400 point vehicle shows up, you are in trouble if your vehicle isn't as good as it can be.

In most cases, if your vehicle is good enough to win a Senior AGNM, you'll most likely never have any issues no matter what anyone else scores. If there are people complaining about the 10 point rule now, and that rule gets eliminated, then they'll start complaining at the AGNM instead.

Bhigdog · June 15th, 2009

The current system works just fine, leave it alone.......Bob

Olds 442 · June 15th, 2009

With the 10 point rule you are competing with the other cars in your class going for the same award NOT only the judging sheet.I'm in favor of doing away with the 10 point spread and if a car meets the requirment for the award they would win it regardless of the other cars in the class.
I have disscussed this with many people and most,not all, would like a change.

Restorer32 · June 15th, 2009

In that case a First should require 400 points.

Olds 442 · June 15th, 2009

Fine with me !!! Just set the standard and stick to it.Don't say you need 365 points for an award AND be within 10 points of the highest scoring car. I know of a car that got its first jr. that I wouldn't have thought could have done better than third.When it won, there was only one other car in its class and it was in worst shape. I think the owner will be surprsed when he goes for a senior.

MCHinson · June 15th, 2009

I am no expert. The following is my personal analysis based on my experience and what I have heard from others on this subject.

I think that I understand the reason for the 10 point rule and I also think that I understand why many people would like to see the 10 point rule go away.

If the 10 point rule went away, I think the minimum points for an award would need to go up. The arguments for and against have been discussed (maybe fussed would be a more accurate description) here before.

The current system rewards the top scoring car in a class, as "1st place", Multiple awards are allowed, as they are, in my opinion, being recognized as essentially "ties" in the competition.

In my opinion, The reason for the 10 point rule is to allow for the fact that human judges are not perfect, it basically considers anything within 10 points as a "tie", for the award, minimizing the potential human error from failing to correctly distinguish who should receive an award when cars are restored to a very similar level of quality.

If you eliminate the 10 point rule and simply make anything over a certain number of points a "1st place" car, you have removed the effect of whoever happens to be on the showfield competing against you, thus eliminating the showfield competition between cars, but some folks would argue that this "cheapens" the competition process.

One argument that has been made in the past is that if you don't have to worry about that unknown potential competition, an owner would be tempted to cut some corners on a restoration and just restore it "just good enough" to get an award, instead of as good as possible.

The basic question is if the desired result is more cars earning trophys, or if the desired result is stiff competition for trophys. I don't know that one way or the other is necessarily better, they are just both different.

Personally, I took an older restoration Model A Ford and brought it back to the level where it has gone from 1st Junior through Senior Grand National without ever having a problem with the 10 point rule. (I did go through a little bit of checking out the competition along the way and worrying am I OK or not, but I managed to always get the award that I was seeking.) Now, I have been driving it more and enjoying it. Next year, I will whip it back into shape and hope to worry my way to Repeat Senior Grand National.

MCHinson · June 15th, 2009

Wow, it took my a while to type that last one...

Originally Posted By: Olds 442

Don't say you need 365 points for an award AND be within 10 points of the highest scoring car.

That is not quite how I see it. What First Place means is you are the highest point car in your class (or within 10 points to tie to make up for the potential human error) and you must have an absolute minimum score of 365 for that First Place, to prevent a poor condition car from inappropriately receiving that trophy if it has no competition.

MCHinson · June 15th, 2009

I was too busy typing my lengthy reply to be the first to suggest that a 1st would have to require a higher number of points if the 10 point rule were eliminated.

Originally Posted By: Restorer32

In that case a First should require 400 points.

Maybe not 400, but it would have to be considerably higher than the current minimum score for a 1st.

ex98thdrill · June 16th, 2009

Quote:

In that case a First should require 400 points

That wouldn't be a good move. I have judged on occassions where I've heard other judges say "there's no such thing as a perfect vehicle, so I'm always going to take off for something." With that type of mentality, there are a lot of people who would never get anything. Some of the other marque clubs have 100 point judging where other clubs have a lot higher point requirement than ours.

The 10 points can hurt you when you point judge your vehicle, but not as bad as the 5 point rule.