[MCHinson]

ted,

What do you mean by "the way the AACA seems to want it"...

The Judging Guidelines call for every car to be the way it "could have left the factory". That IS the way AACA wants it!

How individual human beings seem to intrepret "How it could have left the factory" is the huge grey area that causes controversy.

[Semi-Intelligent]

I've only achieved 50 credits in 14 years, but 14 of them came at Hershey. And we all know how tough Hershey is. Almost as tough as an AGNM. In those years I been priveliged to see 3 400 point cars, and all 3 went on to AGNM firsts. I also seen the 400 point car set the standard for the class of juniors. A tough break for the others, but our judging system is FAIR. We judge the car againist itself, not againist the others in the class. In short the judging point system as it is presently set up is working. I personally don't see a reason for a change.

[MCHinson]

Semi-Intelligent,

I agree that we do not compare one car to another car. We judge from the car to the sheet and make deductions as appropriate.

I am also not convinced that anything needs to be changed.

But the cars do "compete" against each other for awards. That is why everybody does not get a 1st. In most competitions, you have winners and losers. In our system, multiple awards are awarded as long as the cars are restored to a close level (within 10 points) which reduces the impact of any minor human errors in the process.

[Stan Kulikowski]

I've been on both sides of this issue. I've been bitten by the point spread more times than I care to admit, including for an AGNM award.

As I think about the situation, I think that my problem is more with the over restoration of some vehicles has become the new standard for factory correct. My 73 Ford has runs in the inner fender from the factory. They are only visible when the hood is open so the factory wouldn't consider it a flaw that should be fixed. But I get nailed for paint every time. My decision now is that the car has gone as far as it will go in AACA as a Senior car. I don't know that I will ever take that car to and AGNM again. I refuse to repaint the car because it is an original paint car. In fact, the car is unrestored. I have detailed some items like the exhaust manifolds and I have cleaned some chassis components, but the car has never been apart or restored. It still carries its original belts and hoses.

I'm not saying that the system needs changed, although I haved said that in the past. I think that it is more important to hold the judges accountable for evaluating the cars as they COULD have come from the factory. It's not the evaluation system that's broken. Restoring cars is supposed to be a fun hobby (and it is for me), but just because it's fun doesn't mean that it should be easy. We shouldn't become an organization that just hands out awards. The awards should be earned. It's the evaluation of your efforts in preparing a car that needs to be fair.

[Shop Rat]

Originally Posted By: Stan Kulikowski

We shouldn't become an organization that just hands out awards. The awards should be earned. It's the evaluation of your efforts in preparing a car that needs to be fair.

Stan, last year I put together this list as a handout to the field judges if I am the Team Captain. The first paragraph says the same thing you do.

YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES AS A FIELD JUDGE

First and foremost, it is our duty to fairly and equally appraise the authenticity and workmanship of the vehicles the owners have brought to this show. Based on the work we do, awards will be given to worthy vehicles and their owners. We are not here to give awards to vehicles that do not meet the standards set by the AACA.

Please remember, you are never to reveal scores outside of this team. You never know who knows who. Anyone caught revealing scores will be banned from judging at all future shows according to AACA rules.

We have all made friends in this hobby. You may at some point end up judging the vehicle of one of those friends. It is unacceptable to let a friendship sway your judging. Please do not engage in conversations with owners, especially owners that you know personally. Other owners in the class will view this as suspect even if it isn’t.

Please do not nit-pick the cars, but also do no let deductions slide that should be taken. This is where the fairly and equally comes in.

Remember, we are not to take deductions on a hunch that something is wrong. We must be very sure of even a one point deduction. Documentation is the burden of the owner on questioned items.

Be aware of anyone that comes around you when you are judging. Owners are not above bringing friends or relatives to spy on us. Camera phones are now everywhere as are video cameras with sensitive microphones and telephoto lenses. It is best to carry your clipboard against your chest, or put a plain piece of paper over the judging sheets, when not writing on it.

We do not enter vehicles for any reason. Doors should be closed gently with your hand on the handle to guide it if you are the interior judge. Never lean on any part of a vehicle.

The JUDGED sticker is to be placed on the card on the windshield only.

Please speak in a low voice, facing away from the owner when you report your deductions. That way they cannot read lips or tape what is being said.

Remember many were far from perfect when they left the factory.


Susan W. Linden

[MCHinson]

That captures the essence of the judging system in just a few short paragraphs. Well said!

[resq302]

Susan,

The only thing I can add since you brought up "Documentation is the burden of the owner on questioned items." is that I have an issue with that. 2 of our 3 antique cars have a difficult time with factory documentation. Chrysler had a fire at its warehouse where they stored all old material and documentation and lost all information from 1968 up to the mid 1970's. Granted, I have been purchasing anything and everything that I can documentation wise for our 69 charger and 70 challenger but I am certain there was a lot of information that was lost and will never be seen again. Now what happens in that case? Say a judge has a question pertaining to something on my car that I do not have factory documentation for which no longer exists? I am supposed to have points deducted for something that I copied off of an unrestored car vs. having actual non existant paperwork to back me on that is no longer around? Granted, this is a pretty rare instance and I always try to make the team captain of this fact well before they start judging the car.

Our 70 el camino SS396 has a black bucket seat interior in it. We were lucky enough to find NOS seat backs for it. Now they came in orginal GM boxes. We opened up the box and it had a long scratch down the outside part of the seat back. Now this was inside a cardboard box and was brand new. My point is I am pretty sure at the AGNM that was in Dover, this issue had us get a point or some kind of deduction. To me, this would be a vaild argueable point as to the condition it would have been delivered in. If this part came packaged with a large scratch, reasonably speaking, couldn't the factory have installed a part like this?

Not trying to reinvent the wheel but just trying to open peoples minds and think outside the box. I am not agreeing that every car that shows up on the field get an automatic first place for bringing the car out but if your car reaches a certain set score, you should receive that award. Yes, the cars are competing against themselves vs. factory standards but at the same time, you have to get within a certain score of other cars in your class. How is one supposed to compete with say a Chevelle that has almost every part reproduced now to say our 70 challenger that harldy has any parts reproduced? One person has a clear advantage over the other with repro'd parts and availability while the other has to "settle" for a better part than what they had in the car before. Most importantly, these cars back in the day were assembled by people like you and I. Errors occurred. Assembly was sloppy at best. Things were forgotten (like the wire harness holding tabs on my firewall that were never tack welded in on my charger). Heck, my driver side frame rail on the charger had the holes punched in the metal for the screws to hold the starter motor splash shield. I noticed that I was missing my splash shield so I purchased one and installed it only to find that the holes never had any threads cut into them. So now my car has a splash shield in the factory correct spot that was never (but supposed to be) installed at the factory.

I am a judge at my local region shows and also judge at GM and Mopar events. When judging a car, the main thing I keep in my mind is reasonable doubt. If I see something that raises a question in my mind, the first thing I think is "Could this have been installed in this fasion? With human involvement, could something have happend while it was made?

Yes, it is hard to imagine what could have been but just think of the projects that you have had to do, be it your own car or projects around the house. Were any or ALL of them built or done perfectly without any flaws? Do you cut corners at your own job to get home early or come back to work late from a lunch one day? Well, the assembly line workers were just like you and me. It was just a job to them, they were not concerned about building a factory SHOW car umteen years ago, let alone today. Heck, I've seen cars today that are assembled by robots come through with shoddy work.

PS- sorry for the long rant and length of my reply.

[quadfins]

Concerning the Ten Point Rule…

It is very discouraging when one brings a car many miles to a show, seeking a First Junior for the third (or more) time, and KNOWING that it scores high enough to earn the award, but then the multi-millionaire pulls his latest project out of the trailer and parks it next to you. He then walks off to unload the next car, leaving his “minder” behind to dust and polish the car, and provide minute-by-minute updates via cell phone as the judging proceeds. Don’t believe it? I am an eyewitness to it, and can provide names, dates, and locations.
When the Ten Point Rule bites you yet again, you begin to wonder when you should stop beating your head against the wall and give up, since there always is the perfect car in your class. And then, to enhance the bitterness, you read in the Meet Results about the show out west, where 80 cars show up, and none in your class, and you KNOW you would have gotten that First if only you could have taken a week off work and somehow, at great expense, taken the car there.
We had a (mostly) civil discussion about this topic two years ago. Check the archives under the title Ten Point Rule, and it may come up.
Now, understand, I admire those individuals who have the interest and means to completely restore 3 or 4 cars a year, just as a hobby to kill time. More power to them, and my thanks, for preserving automotive history. But please don’t tell me that we are not competing against each other. As has been stated, it can work to the disadvantage of those cars in a class that are more unique, and have fewer parts available, or to those classes that currently have many restorations – that is to say, there are many 1960s cars now competing for 1st Junior, but not too many Brass era. Which is more likely to be affected by the Ten Point Rule?
Part of all this is in how one reads the judging guidelines. The manual states that the top scoring car will be #1, with others “allowed” the same award IF they 1) are above the minimum points, and 2) they are within the 10 point spread from the top scoring car in the category. So, do we look at it as the Ten Point Rule “helps” the good-but-not-as-perfect cars, or as denying “deserving” cars their due, since they achieved the minimum points. I will confess that in the discussion 2 years ago, I took one position, but after having read the Judging Book more closely, I have backed off. Some might call this a “Flip-Flop”, but maybe then I can now run for President.
And while I’m up here on this soapbox, I’ll also mention how frustrating it can be when judging only takes into account “appearances”, but give no credit to operations. That incorrect glossy over restored engine compartment on the next car over may look good, but what about the hours and blood I spent in getting the 48 year old cruise control and automatic headlight dimmers to work? That counts for naught. The thing is, it would be impossible and impractical to test all systems on all cars, especially at the bigger meets. Leave that for the specific Marque meets. And also, how does one compare a “loaded” car that may or may not have all systems operational, with a “Price Leader” that doesn’t have any of those systems at all?
Bottom line – I don’t have the answers, or the solution. We can gripe all we want to, but unless we actually propose workable solutions, we have no right to complain. I think the system, as it stands now, is as good a compromise as can be created. The judges devote a lot of time and effort, and can’t be expected to know every factory detail about every type of car they may encounter in their class.

[Shop Rat]

Thank you Matt. I used to try to remember all of that at the breakfast. Now I just hand the team a copy of it and ask them to read it as a reminder of some important items.

If you or anyone else would like to use the list, feel free to copy it, put your name on it and hand it out.

[Shop Rat]

Originally Posted By: resq302

Susan,

The only thing I can add since you brought up "Documentation is the burden of the owner on questioned items." is that I have an issue with that...say a judge has a question pertaining to something on my car that I do not have factory documentation for which no longer exists? I am supposed to have points deducted for something that I copied off of an unrestored car vs. having actual non existant paperwork to back me on that is no longer around?

resq302, We have to have rules about questioned items or slick talkers could spin a great tale about what is on their vehicle. But even with that in mind remember this line in my list.

Remember, we are not to take deductions on a hunch that something is wrong. We must be very sure of even a one point deduction. Documentation is the burden of the owner on questioned items.

A Team Captain can accept what the owner says. Having photos from an unrestored car would be helpful. Factory literature is the gold standard as far as accepted documentation. Remember too, you may be able to get correct information from the AACA Library and Research Center. AND, if you are an AACA member you get some research for free. Copies can be made and mailed to you for a small fee.