[Restorer32]

I want an AACA First or Senior to still mean something. In my opinion it has become easier and easier to achieve First Place Award status over the last few years. I know the current social trend is to give everyone an award so as not to damage their "self esteem" but I would like to see a finer distinction made between 1st, 2nd and 3rd. We seem to award a great number of 1sts and very few 2nds and 3rds. While having a reputation as the easiest club to win an award through might be good for increasing membership I think it is self defeating in the long term. Just my humble opinion of course, based on 30 years restoring and 72? judging credits.

[ex98thdrill]

Quote:

While having a reputation as the easiest club to win an award through might be good for increasing membership

Never heard that one....

To get people to look at the other side of the spectrum, I'd rather deal with the 10 point spread rather than only having one First Place Winner, One Second Place winner, one third place winner, and everyone else goes home with nothing.

At almost any other show you go to, that's the way it is, so maybe the ones against this might want to pick and choose their battles. If AACA went to only three winners per class (1st, 2nd & 3rd), people would be losing more than they are with the 10 point spread now. If we had that alternative, it would take people YEARS to win their awards.

Personally the 10 point rule not only protects vehicles from being misjudged, but it also protects the owners of the orphan vehicles that are competing against other vehicles where parts aren't as readilly available. In the truck class, you can have a REO truck competing against a Ford. Well most people know that Ford parts are more available than REO trucks, so which of the two should look nicer on the showfield??

As I've said before, if your vehicle is good enough to win a Senior Grand National Award (the Highest Award that you can win in AACA), you will have no issues going for a 1st Junior or a Senior Award. The people who get mad about not getting their 1st Junior or their Senior Award will only switch to being mad about not getting their 1st AGNM. Removing the 10 point spread will only take the complaints to a higher level.

[Shop Rat]

I can understand when owners go to a show and they see a vehicle with an AACA First Junior tab on it and it is in rougher shape than their vehicle, and they haven't been able to get a First Junior, that they are upset. It doesn't seem quite fair. It has to be hard to deal with that.

But it does happen like in the case of Matt Wilson's Rambler SC/Rambler race car. It was a rainy day, there was only one other car in the class and his was the highest point car of the two and made the minimum for a first place so he got it. But in his case he knows that his car would not have won at a show where there are more in his class. He also knows that he will never get a Senior Award until he restores the car. He is fine with that. But I bet there are owners that walk by his car and see the tab on it and wonder "why can't I get one?"

I'm not sure how to fix that. Maybe keep the ten point spread but raise the minimum points needed for a first.

[Jay Wolf]

Well put Susan. The point is AACA says you are not in competition with any other vehicle when with the 10 point rule you are. I too was the recipient of a gift first place with and Amphicar in 1990 at Hershey, it was pouring rain so hard, most cars did not come on the field and it was rain too hard to judge the one that did.
The car should be judged on its own merits not against another car, As some cars are catalog cars and some cars no parts are available for. If you a 57 Chevy capable of getting 365 points, you know it will never win a first as every show there will be a 400 or close 57 Chevy in your class.

I am in favor of putting the first at say 375 (for argument sake) and everybody over 375 wins a first.

With the current 10 point rule you can have a car that earns 365 points and not even get a 3rd it you have a 400, a 389 and a 378 point cars in your class.
Say what you will but it takes $$$ to make a 400 point car.
A hobbyist or home restoration can do a 375 point car on a budget.

What part of the Hobby is AACA after people who love cars or people with deep pockets?

[Restorer32]

It is a fallacy to assume that "people with deep pockets" can't also love cars. I have seen cars restored by "deep pockets" that would have not been restored otherwise. $150K restorations on cars worth 1/3 that amount or even less. You have to love cars to do that, don't you agree? Very few cars are restored with profit in mind. "Fixed up" maybe, restored no.

[R W Burgess]

I appreciate the professionalism in this thread. I didn't post it to bring about unrest, but just to get everyone's viewpoints and opinions!

Well done, guys! [img]<>/wink.gif[/img]

Wayne

[Jay Wolf]

As I reread my post I don’t think I stated that as well as I could have or said what I was thinking.

To restate it:
Are national awards going to be only for the car lovers with deep pockets or is there room for the car lover who works every night after work in his garage on a budget, and makes and modifies part to work because he cannot afford to do it perfect.

There will always be Concours d'Elegance for the perfect cars that the amateur restorer will never be invited to so don’t make AACA out of reach to younger hobbyist.

The average younger guy with two kids can not afford to put 3 times what a car is worth in to it.
They may not make money or get anything for their time but they need to break even on expenditures. There needs to be somewhere (AACA) to show their cars and have the satisfaction of accomplishment and to a lot of people that may be a trophy.

An AACA First Nation has never been given only to perfect cars.

[MCHinson]

Jay,
I realize that there are different opinions on this issue. I am not 100% convinced that the system needs to be changed, and I am not 100% sure that it needs to be left alone.

Somewhere, people get the idea that in AACA judging, you are not supposed to be competing against other cars. That is not correct. Clearly a car on the showfield does, in fact, compete against other cars in its class. I don't know if that is good, bad, or indifferent, but that is what happens.

I have never been to a "Concours d'Elegance", but as I understand it, they do not cater to "perfect" cars, they cater more to what could probably be called "beautiful" cars. I think that they normally compete with closed hoods so the engine compartment need not be anywhere near perfect.

I don't want to sound argumentative.

I am a Police Lieutenant. I am 48 years old. I don't make as much money as I could in the private sector. I have two kids and a disabled wife. I do not have deep pockets.

I have a Senior Grand National winning 1929 Model A Ford Phaeton. I bought it as an older restoration that had never been entered in a national show. I re-restored it myself at night and on weekends in my home garage (it still has the 1989 Paint job... but I did a lot of touch up painting) and successfully competed with it never having a problem with the 10 point rule. The total that I have invested in the car is less than 2/3 of the appraised value of the car. It is not perfect, but I take pride in doing my best, within my resources, to make it as authentic a representation of a 1929 Model A Ford as I can make it.

[resq302]

Originally Posted By: Jay Wolf

Well put Susan. The point is AACA says you are not in competition with any other vehicle when with the 10 point rule you are. I too was the recipient of a gift first place with and Amphicar in 1990 at Hershey, it was pouring rain so hard, most cars did not come on the field and it was rain too hard to judge the one that did.
The car should be judged on its own merits not against another car, As some cars are catalog cars and some cars no parts are available for. If you a 57 Chevy capable of getting 365 points, you know it will never win a first as every show there will be a 400 or close 57 Chevy in your class.

I am in favor of putting the first at say 375 (for argument sake) and everybody over 375 wins a first.

With the current 10 point rule you can have a car that earns 365 points and not even get a 3rd it you have a 400, a 389 and a 378 point cars in your class.
Say what you will but it takes $$$ to make a 400 point car.
A hobbyist or home restoration can do a 375 point car on a budget.

What part of the Hobby is AACA after people who love cars or people with deep pockets?

Probably the same people that said lets take the car show at hershey off the pavement and put it on mud while the vendors get the high and dry paved areas. Makes perfect sense to me have thousands of dollars cars sink into mud, then possibly get damaged towing them out while the vendors who dont even spend the whole weekend anymore get prime location and dont have to worry about getting irreplaceable cars repaired. Being sarcastic, but I hope I get my point across.

Although we have not been effected by the 10 point rule, the 5 point rule did come up and bite us in the behind as we were informed by someone that there were a couple 400 point cars at the grand national show we were at and that we were just below where we needed to be. Again, this is word of mouth but I take it from a very credible source. So, yes, we were above the minimum amount of points to get our First Junior GN award but because of the 5 point rule and a perfect scoring car, we ended up getting a second. Now when we got a copy of the judging sheet, the areas that were highlighted we went over and yes, even though there were some "issues" with the car, some of them could have been done like that at the factory. Lets face it, there are people who restore their cars to factory specs meaning orange peel, paint runs, etc. Cars back then were not perfect as they were popping them out at an average of 1 car per minute from the facts I have based on my 69 charger. Were panels misaligned at the factory, possibly. Were incorrect items installed, possibly. Ive found it all depends on the judges and the outcome of what they "perceive" to be correct. There was a perfect article a couple years ago when there was a judging seminar that involved a brand new either Saturn or Pontiac car and the judges went over the car judging it. Mind you this was a brand new car that had only a couple miles on it. 99% of the judges deducted points even though it was a brand new, delivered car that had not been really driven other than on and off trailers. If I remember correctly, it was only one judge who spoke up and said that he/she would give the car a perfect score. Why a pefect score?!?!?! The car had weld splatter and such on the engine and other blems throughout the car! The judges reasoning was because it was that way as delivered and manufactured therefore, no points should have been deducted.

[MCHinson]

The point of displaying a new car from a dealership as part of the judges training, was exactly as you indicate... to show that "as delivered from the factory" does not mean perfect.

I think that was used a few times. I don't think that it is accurate that 99% of the judges thought that there should be points deducted, but there were some people that certainly learned something when it was explained that those minor imperfections, were as delivered from the factory. I think it was a very good teaching tool for some judges, but as I recall my observations at one of those sessions, there were a lot of folks who correctly realized that they were looking at a 400 point car.

I think that the real issue is teaching judges not to be nit-picky. That is always being taught and will probably have to continue to be taught forever.

Judging never makes everybody happy, not on a showfield, not at a county fair, and not even in a courtroom. Never will everybody agree totally with the results of any judge(s).

It would be nice if there was a simply perfect solution to make everybody happy about the judging guidelines, but unfortunately, there is not a perfect system that will make everybody happy.

The only hope we have is to make the best system that will yield the most consistent results and make as many people as possible feel that the system was fair and appropriate.