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Thread: Over restoration?

  1. #1

    Over restoration?

    Has the club ever addressed the subject of over restoration such as clear-coated 50s chassis, or a mirror finish on what was merely dip-painted rough cast iron when it left the factory? Seems like the restorers should be researching the way these older cars actually were when new, instead of merely equating "new " with "flawless." In addition, it seems that these over (read "incorrect") restorations routinely receive top awards, thereby putting false notions into the public's minds. Seems to me that a glazed chassis on a Ranchero's as wrong as chrome on a brass-era car.

  2. #2
    Super Moderator Steve Moskowitz's Avatar
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    Re: Over restoration?

    Our judging manuals are clear in this instance and also this is discussed during all judging schools. AACA does not award any extra points for over restoration NOR do we deduct for better finishes, etc. We do not see it the same as chrome on a brass car but do understand your point. In the world we live in and in the interest of serving our members it is imperative with the broad spectrum of cars in our system that we allow restoration to standards universally accepted today. Virtually every car restored today is over-restored...mine certainly have been!

  3. #3
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    Re: Over restoration?

    Judges can and often do deduct points for incorrect finish. If someone has a hand-rubbed glossy finish in the engine compartment when it should be semi-gloss, points can be taken off on a number of areas for incorrect finish.
    Terry
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    Senior Member mrpushbutton's Avatar
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    Re: Over restoration?

    RV- the AACA, much to their credit, can and does subtract for certain over restoration practices. Having said that,over restoring a car has become the norm, and in certain marque clubs judging, essential for leaving a show with a trophy. Sad, but true. The AACA first is one of the most legitimate awards a car can carry, and a good barganing chip at time of sale. Most Detroit cars were not given the micro-tweaking at the factory that a restored car today sports.
    John

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    Senior Member Ron Green's Avatar
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    Re: Over restoration?

    Terry, thanks for the informative reply.

    It is funny you mention the engine compartment as I was detailing mine this weekend for the GN in a few weeks. I went to great details to make sure the 60% and gloss black were in the correct places during the restoration. I tried a new wipe down product Saturday and it made the 60% gloss black a little to shinny in my opinion so perhaps I should try and dull it down a little?

    In regards to RV's chassis comments some of the 50's vehicles were actually undercoated with some parts at the factory and the remaining at the dealer, all depending where the vehicle was sold and climate conditions. When they undercoated they didn't care what got sprayed, gas tank, shocks, exhaust system, etc.
    Ron Green

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    Former President-International Amphicar Owners Club (IAOC)

  6. #6

    Re: Over restoration?

    Terry, Steve, and Mr. P: Thanks for the information. I guess I find that "norm" disappointing. For me, it's like giving incorrect testimony in a hearing in order to "improve" what actually happened. If someone were to show a car that was hermetically preserved right off the showroom floor, 40-60 years later, the car'd get laughed off the show field, and that'd be a dirty shame. Oldtimers who go to car shows, and who well remember the cars when they first came out, are pretty unanimous that the jewels on display are "way better" than new. I don't think that it should be this way, but I guess I'm in the minority.

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    Re: Over restoration?

    Dear RV,IMHO single marque clubs are more true to how they left the factory.Examples would be Early Ford V-8 Club Of America and National Corvette Restorers Society.If you want to have a conversation with somebody regarding which way the cotter pins were bent at the factory and DONT forget the overspray in ALL the right places THESE are the guys you wanna be talking to.diz <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

  8. #8

    Re: Over restoration?

    Quote: "If you want to have a conversation with somebody regarding which way the cotter pins were bent at the factory and DONT forget the overspray in ALL the right places.." <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

    Or which employees on which shifts were lefties, so you know which way to put 'em in?

    That's my kind of thing. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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    Re: Over restoration?

    My father and I are definately guilty of overrestoration. With him being a military retiree, and by having 21 years in myself, we spend a lot of time paying attention to detail. I know our cars are better than what they actually were when they were new.

    With that said, we've beaten other cars, and we've had other cars beat ours. I think the best way for you to understand the judging system in AACA is to get involved with the judging system. Once you get involved, I think you'll discover that no one places one car against the other.

    Whether the car is a factory original car that was driven every day for 10 years, and then hasn't been touched in 30 years, or if it a restoration that was just finished, understand that every car that pulls onto the showfield is a perfect 400 point car. At the end of the day when the Chief Judge releases the cars from the show field, not every car LEAVES as the perfect 400 point car. When a car is judged, it is judged. The judges don't go back and start deducting and giving points to one car or another. The awards are given based on points, and if each vehicle scores within a certain amount of points of another vehicle in the same class, the awards are given accordingly.

    As I've previously said, and I'll repeat it once more, the best way to learn and understand the judging system is to get involved with the judging system. I don't agree with the entire system, but I am involved with it, and I understand it.

  10. #10

    Re: Over restoration?

    "The best way to learn and understand the judging system is to get involved with the judging system."

    I'd love to. But I'm restricted by my teaching schedule. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

  11. #11
    Senior Member-1951 Model Shop Rat's Avatar
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    Re: Over restoration?

    Offical Judging Manuals can be purchased if you can't make it to a class. They aren't just for judges. Reading that is a good starting point to understanding how the system works and what the rules are. The cost of the book last year was $4.50 (plus some shipping/handling). It probably is somewhere in that range this year. If you can attend a class then the manual is free.
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    Senior Member novaman's Avatar
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    Re: Over restoration?

    you can also read the PDF file version which can be found I believe under publication on the main AACA website.
    novaman

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  13. #13

    Re: Over restoration?

    I have one, though it's a couple years old.

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    Re: Over restoration?

    I don't know what your schedule is, but if you can make it to the meets, you should be able to do some judging. If your schedule doesn't fit, keep it in mind.

    Looking back, I wish I'd have gotten into judging prior to restoration, because there are things we could've done right the first time and saved ourselves some time and money. It is a good learning experience.

    On the flip side, when you've done your own restoration work, it is good to be able to keep that in perspective when you're judging someone else's vehicle. I'd like to place myself in the category as one who won't knitpick everything. I'm sure there are people who have never done a restoration who might have a tendency to knitpick because they can't comprehend the work involved.

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    Senior Member mrpushbutton's Avatar
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    Re: Over restoration?

    ex98thdrill-amen and Hu-raah!
    John

    The real pity in America is that the people who really know how to run the country are all tending bar and cutting hair--George Burns

  16. #16

    Re: Over restoration?

    Or perhaps they nitpick because they've paid a big shop some mighty big $$$ to do their cars.

  17. #17
    Senior Member mrpushbutton's Avatar
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    Re: Over restoration?

    RV-many shops are specialists in one brand/model and have all the authenticity research "done". IMHO, it's worth shipping a car to such a reputed shop, especially if they have a good reputation and have AACA firsts, or high point CCCA, whoever awards to their credit. They also have made all of the mistakes on other jobs and (hopefully) learned. It takes a restoration shop TIME (which is MONEY) to research what is correct for each make and model. That time has to be paid for, and some customers are reluctant to pay for that service. It helps when a given club is up front as to what is "correct" for a given make and model. With some clubs it's a game. They know, you don't and they ain't tellin'. But they will judge you. One of the Lincoln clubs puts out a definitive guide on how to correctly restore a car (in their instance, the first Continental models)
    John

    The real pity in America is that the people who really know how to run the country are all tending bar and cutting hair--George Burns

  18. #18
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    Re: Over restoration?

    At every judges breakfast/brunch we are told not to nitpick the cars but also to not let items slide that deserve a deduction. To judge them all as fairly and evenly as is possible. It should not be a factor one way or the other as to who did the restoration, the owner or a shop. Correct restoration is correct restoration and incorrect restoration is incorrect restoration no matter who did it or how much was paid for it.

    It also should not be a factor as to who owns the car. The owner was not an accessory from the factory. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
    Susan W. Linden

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    Re: Over restoration?

    That's true, but all it takes is one.

    Two years ago I was judging a class in Hagerstown and the Team Captain had me deduct a point for having a "Do Not Touch" magnet on their front bumper. Personally I think it was a total crock of SH*! but rather than ask the owner to remove it, this person had to be a jerk about it.

    In this case it was only a Preservation Award, but in some cases, every point counts. If it was a sticker, I could understand, but I find it wrong for a judge to penalize a person who has a magnet on their car asking people not to touch it. If it was going to hurt someone going for a Junior or Senior and it was costing them an award, then I would've fought it out with the Chief Judge.

    It's just like an issue of dust on a car, there are some areas where if these judges (not all of them) owned a car that went for these awards, they'd understand that "the eye reaches farther than the hand" and you can't always get all of the dust out of every area, but common sense is not something taught in that one hour of judging school, it is learned and developed through your lifetime.

  20. #20

    Re: Over restoration?

    Mr. Push, I hope my post didn't come across as being critical of folks who pay big dough to the shops, or of the shops who invest in scholarly research to make their restorations factory correct. I was just surmising that if one of those were judging, they would naturally be drawn to a close inspection of certain details, and their restoration experiences would give them the background to be more critical ("nitpicky"??) than (perhaps) the self-taught restorer engaged in judging.

  21. #21
    Senior Member-1951 Model Shop Rat's Avatar
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    Re: Over restoration?

    RV, Another problem that can rear it's ugly head is when someone that is a true, trained expert about certain cars judges a class with that car in it. It is very hard for some of them to judge evenly throughout the class if there is a car that they know everything about. Both Bill and I have seen it happen. That one car will get nitpicked and the other cars don't because the person does not know as much about the other cars. And the judge will go around telling the other team members how to judge their catagory based on their knowledge of the car. While it may be correct how the car is judged as to faults, it is not fair to single it out for such detailed judging in a non-marque show.
    Susan W. Linden

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    Senior Member mrpushbutton's Avatar
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    Re: Over restoration?

    RV-no offense taken. Most shops want to do a good, authentic job. They are only as good as their information though, and don't want to spend a lot of time off the clock getting an arcane education. That is where a "specialist" is invaluable. a guy that specialises in 55-6-7 chevys is great, if you have a 55-6-7 chevy. He up to speed already, and has some trophies to his credit. I wouldn't take a Pierce Arrow to him and expect the same results without a lot of research. What usually happens there is he just treats it like a Chevy, because that's what he knows. I've seen that happen.
    There is a thing that can happen with big, comprehensive restorations--the owner has in mind how much they want to spend to take this dinged up, pitted chrome, barely running original car and have it cosmetically and mechanically restored. Some body men (not all-don't yell)are "artistes" and can spend a lot of time perfecting perfection, because---after all, you want the body to look "perfect" don't you? This eats a disporportionate amount of available restoration dollars, and by the time this is figured out, the owner is crying "uncle" and this is usually right before the car starts going together. In authenticity, the devil is in the details. When the money is running tight,
    and every 15 mins. spent is questioned, the details can be a casuality. This is an exception to the rule, there are many well regarded shops that have their processes down, and deliver a historically correct, beautiful product to their customers for what was appropriate to spend (time-wise) on that given car, as received.
    Then there are the "auction flippers".........whoo boy!
    John

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  23. #23

    Re: Over restoration?

    These insights are fascinating, exposing an aspect of the restoration world that I've only heard about. I have hired many folks to assist in my restorations, mostly machine shops, but never handed a car over entirely.

    Speaking of fender artistes--I once carried on an extended conversation with the owner of a "dip & strip" facility who was also very much a car guy. He told me of a Mercedes body that he dipped for the owner who just wanted a good re-paint. It came out of the bath with only 3 fenders. The fourth had disappeared entirely. Turns out, it had been made of paper-mache. Totally indistinguishable from the other 3 original metal fenders. The guy that did that needs to have some kind of award, in my book.

  24. #24
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    Re: Over restoration?

    I've never seen a paper mache fender but I have seen taillight housings sculpted from 100% bondo and paint stir sticks used to reinforce bondo rocker panels. Once saw an early 30's Rolls completely rechromed using chrome tape. Actually didn't look too bad.
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