Moved to Class 04B

[charlier]

Steve, the small car class at Hershey most definitely had far fewer VWs this year compared to last year for a few reasons that I know of.

Some VW Owners are not very happy with the "Small Car Class", how it is defined and how more than a couple cars that should be in this class continue to find their way into other classes. It has been said that this class is a "Work In Progress". That being said, for some the progress in tweaking this class is not moving very fast, if at all. Case in point, no changes were made in 2012 (with the feedback given in 2011) as far as the list of cars in this class or how it is defined. Time will tell if changes are made for 2013 and just what those changes end up being.

Another reason for low VW Attendance at Fall Hershey is the placement on the show field of this class. Some VW Owners think the location literally and figuratively "stinks". Literally speaking, when the wind blows from a certain direction the aroma from the sewage treatment plant down the road can get rather pungent. Last year, the aroma was nearly non-stop when the wind switched directions and the aroma from the port-o-pots nearby added to the challenge of showing a car in this location. Figuratively, some owners last year felt that the location on the field was such that spectators simply walked by their cars because they did not see them on the downward slope next to the one entrance. If I had a $1 for every spectator that told me personally they almost missed the class or searched and almost gave up I could have bought more than couple Crab Cake Sandwiches at $7 each.

This year there were fewer VWs for other reasons as well. I started showing one of my VWs in HPOF this year. Since my Rabbit went to the Dual Meet in TN, I decided that my VW GTI 16V would come to Hershey. I would be telling a lie if I did not say here that part of my decision to show in HPOF was influenced by the aroma in class 04-B that I experienced last year. I know of another owner of multiple VWs that decided to bring his race car instead of one of his VWs. He will probably weigh in here about that at some point.

I also know of another VW Owner who did not show this year at Fall Hershey due to a recent surgery. That particular owner was very vocal at Hershey last year about not caring for the location of class 04-B as well.

For comparison purposes here are the registrations for other AACA Meets in 2012 that I attended for Class 04-b:

- Eastern Spring Meet - Reading, PA: Total Entires = 11 / Total Volkswagens = 6

- 2012 Grand National - SHelbyville, TN: Total Entries = 9 / Total Volkswagens = 6

- SE Special Fall Meet - Shelbyville, TN: Total Entries = 11 / Total Volkswagens = 4

BTW, I spoke to the owner of the only Volkswagen in Class 04-B at Fall Hershey this year. He told me that this would be the last Fall Hershey he would be bringing his VW Beetle to. He has his reasons and will probably chime in here at some point so I will let him speak for himself.

What the future holds for Volkswagens in Class 04-B and at Fall Hershey in particular is anyone's guess. After this year it would appear to be not as bright at Fall Hershey but who knows, things might change. Time Will Tell I Suppose.

On a different note, it was great to see both you and Diane at Fall Hershey this year. I hope to see you both next year.

[Stonefish]

Yea, I guess I'll chime in….I thought the crab cakes were $8!?

Otherwise…discussing this issue here is pointless. I mean…everyone knows where I stand….I sent my letter to the VP last year, that went unanswered and didn't spark any type of change. I've brought up these other cases from Reading and the GN event…nothing….
Feedback, right here it is, on this forum…brought to you by the club…a "pulse" of what the members are talking about or concerned with…and no one really wants to put a finger on it. Makes me tired…
If folks want to be in 04b…let'em. If they want to be in with the production cars…let'em.

On another note…I had a great time showing the Superoo this year. The race car folks were excellent…Think I'll stick around 24b for a while! Great Fall Meet!

[volxy]

Yep..as Charlie stated it "stinks"..the air and the turn out for O4B this year @ Hershey..I was the only Judged vw at the meet this year and i do have to say it "stinks" I remember before this class the numbers of vw's on the field were way better in there respected classes..i hope the "work in progress" gets working instead of "being unemployed" as I stated before the class would be better off having all air cooled vw's seperated into 3 groups by these years 46-57 58-67 68-79..these years were the major changes by vw..I feel this is why so many of our fellow vw members are not participating since the class change..I hope we can get some results solved for 2013..IT REALY SUCKED TO HAVE EVERYONE SAY HOW COME THERES NO OTHER VOLKSWAGENS HERE,there were others registered but no shows..as to our H2O VW owners they should be placed with the production year vehicles,just like the other compact size cars by other makes..omni,chevette,vega,etc..that are in there respected classes..as Charlie stated i most likley won't be showing next year @ Hershey..1. I felt like the GIANT in the class 2.the small turn out in this class 3.the smell 4.Judging..I hope someone gets with us O4B owners and asks us our opinions instead of COMPLAINING here and not getting anything done.

Thanx,Rob

[volxy]

Sorry when I mentioned Judging,I was refering to Being a Judge NOT how the class was Judged..sorry..

[kuhner]

I didnt take my beetle this year because I didnt like where they were parking us in 04B last year.
I also sent a letter last year to head of judging asking nicely for an explanation but never recieved a reply.
I guess we'll all have to live with it. I thought it was nice to see cars of the same era all together, regardless of size.
I'll continue to monitor this thread good points all around.

greg kuhnash

[Stonefish]

Greg...you may want to peek in at the thread below, it has tracked over to some fine 04b conversation. You are the third person that I know of that sent a letter with no response. Look for an email from me, perhaps an organized bombardment will get someone's attention??

Nash Met Taxi - Anyone get the story?

[stock_steve]

Ok, I wrote my letter to the VP of Judging yesterday requesting that I be allowed to show my '54 VW in Class #27A, where it has historically ALWAYS been shown (achieving First Junior, Senior, Grand National, and many Preservations along the way). I am *not happy* with being moved to class 04b.

I really don't care what happens with Class #04b, and if other people are happy there, then that's fine.

As I say, I just want to continue to show my 1954 VW in Class #27A. I will follow up with any response that I may receive from the VP of Judging.

I would suggest that anyone else not happy with having their car moved to Class #04b might think about doing the same. If rthey don't know we're not happy, then nothing will ever change.

It appears that our voicing our displeasure here does not have much effect...

[stock_steve]

I have scanned the letter I received in response to my letter to the AACA VP of Class Judging and will attempt pasting it in below (click on the small image to enlarge it).

I will refrain from adding any editorial comments at this time, but I URGE you to make your voices heard if you are not happy with having your car moved to Class 04B...

[Stonefish]

Anyone here on the original petition? Anyone here get polled??

it seems there are "several members" on here that aren't in favor of the class....I wonder if we can petitioin to have things put back the way they were?

My letter is in the works...but trying to keep it to one page has been tough!!

[DAVE A]

I just returned home from Hilton Head Island SC, where I participated in the microcar class in the Hilton Head Concours d'Elegance. Hilton Head is the first major concours to have a permanant mcrocar class. During the course of the day many of us who are AACA members were approached by a gentleman who is, shall we say, rather well connected in the upper echelon of AACA judging.(I did not ask permission to use his name so I won't) His primary item of discussion was class 04- . He summarized the discussion that has been taking place and mentioned the letters that have been received and asked for our opinions. It seems he had a total understanding of the situation and the dissatisfaction as has been voiced here. He also hinted there will be discussion at the national meeting in Philadelphia and some possible adjustments in the class are forthcoming. What I am saying is that the complaints are being heard . Keep talking...they are listening!!!
Now on to the microcar class at Hilton Head. There were 10 cars in the class, all beautiful examples of their kind. All of the awards in the class were won by AACA cars. In fact, I was told that many classes were dominated by Cars with AACA pedigrees. A real feather in this organization's cap!!

[Stonefish]

Sounds good Dave...What types of cars were in the Microcar Class? Would the Philly discussions be for general membership? Good report...good to hear we have someone's ear.

[stock_steve]

... During the course of the day many of us who are AACA members were approached by a gentleman who is, shall we say, rather well connected in the upper echelon of AACA judging.(I did not ask permission to use his name so I won't) His primary item of discussion was class 04- . He summarized the discussion that has been taking place and mentioned the letters that have been received and asked for our opinions. It seems he had a total understanding of the situation and the dissatisfaction as has been voiced here. He also hinted there will be discussion at the national meeting in Philadelphia and some possible adjustments in the class are forthcoming. What I am saying is that the complaints are being heard . Keep talking...they are listening!!!...

Gosh, that's good to hear, Dave--thanks for follow-up!

[DAVE A]

Ron;
There were 2 Isetta 300s, an Isetta 600, a Goggomobile, a Rovin D-5, a Messerschmitt, a Fiat 500, a Hoffman (one off from Jeff Lane), and my 2 Crosleys. Sorry no VW's. I don't know if he was saying that the discussion would be "in committee" or in the general discussion.
I want to insert here something I have been saying to my Crosley club people for some time. We, in the AACA have high standards for our cars. As such, they "fit in" in concours events. If you have fun showing your car, you will enjoy a concours. Plus you get to "rub elbows" with the upper crust if you want to. Also, in most concours events they feed you (no entry fee) at least 2 times and sometimes 3!!! Finally since the people attending are paying to see your cars (in some cases 25-35 dollars per person or more), they have an appreciation for what they are looking at. Microcar people should give more consideration to entering...you will enjoy it!!!

[Stonefish]

I was acutally hoping that there wasn't any VW's in that class. Sounds like that "small car" class is more in line to what your view of 04b should be?

[DAVE A]

Essentially, I think you are right. The "modern" VW has developed to beyond what my impression of the intent of 04-b was. I think they lost sight of that fact when the class was developed. It has become a better, more "sophisticated" vehicle with a far better emphasis on fit and finish. I don't think, however, that the concours has a guideline that would exclude the VW, especially the early ones. I think a nice oval or double window would fit in great, not to mention something like a schwimmwagen.

[Stonefish]

I find this to be quite enlightening! A list from the Vintage Microcar Club...

The Vintage Microcar Club Cars List



hmmmmmm....it seems like every car on the AACA list is there except: Bantam, Metroplitan &...wait for it....Volkswagen!

[DAVE A]

Ron;
You will also note from the title page of that Club's website that their primary focus is on "post WWII bubblecars. In particular the Isetta.....and the Messerschmitt" Their definition is based on engine size "under 1,000 cc" . Volkswagen Beetle was at its' smallest 1.1 L, and the Metropolitan was 1.2 L. The Bantam was pre WWII and doesn't fit under that criteria. I keep contact with that group and I really think if a few VW , Metropolitan, or Bantam owners wanted to be members, they would be welcomed!!!

[Stonefish]

I'm sure it is a nice group and all....but...my point was more like; Here is a list of small cars, it is readily accepted and is pretty close to what 04b looks like...MINUS...VWs and Mets (although, maybe the Met owners like 04b??) In turn...have 04b the same way. Where do Met owners stand? I just know a good number of VW owners want out. BTW...my letter has been sent...hoping for reply.

[Bob Hill]

I have no dog in this fight but I guess my question is what real difference does it make if the VWs are in Class 04 or a regular production class? If the car is correctly restored, it should do well regardless of which class it is in.

Bob

[Steve Moskowitz]

I will dip my toes in here a bit. First, everyone has an opinion...we respect that. However, the forum only contains a small number of people we have heard from. Trying to satisfy everyone's opinion is not easily done. The small car class is a work in progress like all other classes. We recently redefined the class and who knows there may end up being a class only for Volkswagens at some point.

If you look at AACA classes over the years it is easy to see that they have evolved. Our Judging Guidelines are now 100 pages versus a few sheets in the beginning. Yes, your voices are being heard and yes your letters are being responded to. A few of you though need to learn that our club is comprised of volunteers who put in huge number of hours for the benefit of the club and should not be abused. Everyone seems to have a lock on what is right way to go but they do not always have the full story. There are usually several factors to consider when adding another class or changing classes. The small car class was put out with the best of intentions as we had MANY complaints that the smaller cars did not want to be parked and judged in the same classes as full size cars.

I can guarantee you that AACA works very hard at trying to come up with the right decisions for our judging program. The large committee has very spirited discussions about how to move forward and we talk to a LOT of members all around the country. In some cases the only way we could make someone happy would be to have a class like Class 1296 1974 Buick LeSabre, Red, built in March, PS/PB, AM/FM, floor mats and delivered in Hoboken.

Stay tuned and have a Happy Thanksgiving.

[stock_steve]

I have no dog in this fight but I guess my question is what real difference does it make if the VWs are in Class 04 or a regular production class? If the car is correctly restored, it should do well regardless of which class it is in.

Bob

In my case, Bob, it is a feeling if disappointment at having been showing our 1954 VW for so many years in class 27A, where we've made many friends, and enjoyed catching up with those folks year after year, and then to find that we had been moved to another class, located somwhere else, and with no option of continuing on in class 27A.

[stock_steve]

...A few of you though need to learn...

As always, Steve, I believe that I have posted my feelings here in a civil and respectful manner (as I always do with all my posts, no matter the subject), and wrote my letter to the VP of judging in a similarly civil and respectful manner.

I will always, however, have a disagreement with management about the practice of editing/deleting of posts that are written in a civil and respectful manner--that's not going to change.

Thanks to you and everyone who volunteers to make AACA work, and Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[Steve Moskowitz]

The NEW 4A & 4B Definiton:
The vehicles displayed in the Small Vehicle Class were marketed as sub-compact/economy vehicles.The candidates are compared to a 1965 VW and must meet the following criteria, 95" wheelbase or shorter, 161" total length or shorter, 1-4 cylinder, 91 cid 50hp engine or smaller.

All vehicles presently in class 04A & 04B are being reviewed to insure they fit the criteria. Those not meeting the criteria will be reassigned to the proper class they fit.

That is what the landscape looks like today. The committee is working hard on refinements and other changes may or may not be instituted. In the end you might like the changes or maybe not. Some already do but there is NO way to please everyone and to take care of everyone's individual likes and dislikes. If we did that we would have to have 50 more classes at minimum. There is a lot of work going into the small car classes and classic car classes at the moment...the team is at work.

You will see a massively changed judging guideline book for 2013. As I said, our judging system is always evolving so don't despair but DO make your comments known to our VP of Class Judging. Helps if you don't call him a dumb ***! He's not and he does care.

[Bill Clark]

re: What do Met owners think?
One Met owners opinion. I have been showing two Mets for years and as I pointed out in my initial comments its not a big deal which class I have been put in. Mets get shown as foreign, domestic, are invited to Nash shows, AMC shows, small car shows, and for a while were in 27B. I do object to being put in the bushes behind the toilets at Hershey.

As I also pointed out, this class needed some adjustment. Looks like that is happening. I'm curious how the changes in various model years are going to be taken care of. Using the VeWee as an example, iIf I have my numbers correct, the first VWs were 24 HP, and the last bugs were 54. The break point above is 50HP. The first cars were 1100cc or 67 Ci and the last were 1600 or 97ci. The break point is 91. Are they going with the numbers when the cars were introduced, production ended, or do VWs go back with the production vehicles when the criteria is exceeded. The table below has some of the numbers for a few of the cars, some in and some not in class 04. Maybe the judging committee should just go down this list and make assignments. Kudos to the judging committee for addressing this issue.
Bill

Todays class	Car	Introduction Year	Last Year	Wheelbase	Lowest HP	Highest HP	lowest cc	highest cc
4b	Peel	1962	1965	50.0	4.2		49
4a and b	Isettas	1955	1962	58.0	13.0		247
4b	Subaru 360	1958	1971	70.9	25.0	36.0	356	423
4b	Citroen 2CV	1948	1990	94.5	9.0	29.0	375	602
4b	King Midget	1946	1970	72.0	7.5		400
4b	Honda S500	1963	1964	78.7	44.0		531
4a and b	Crosley/Crofton	1939	1952	80.0	25.6		580	760
4b	Honda S600	1964	1966	78.7	57.0		606
4a	American Austin/Bantam	1930	1934	75.0	13.0	14.0	747
4b	Renault Caravelle	1959	1968	83.0	19.0		760
4b	Morris Minor	1948	1971	86.0	27.5	28.0	803	918
4b	Mini Coopers	1959	2000	80.3	34.0	55.0	850	1275
4b	DKW	1953	1955	92.5	34.0		900
4b	Autobianchi	1955	1986	80.2	48.0	70.0	903	1050
4b	Met	1953	1961	85.0	42.0	55.0	1200	1500
	Honda Civic	1973	1979	86.5	53.0		1169	1240
	Datsun 1000	1966	1969	89.0	62.0		988
	Datsun 210	1973	1978	92.1	65.0		1300	1600
	Pinto	1971	1980	94.0	54.0	102.0	1600	2800
4b	Volkswagon	1953	2002	94.5	24.0	54.0	1100	1600
4b	VW Rabbit	1974	1983	94.5	78.0	110.0	1500	1800
	Fiat 124	1966	1974	95.3	65.0		1200	1800
	Chevette	1976	1987	95.3	53.0	70.0	1400	1800
	Vega	1971	1977	97.0	90.0		2000	2300
	Dodge Omni	1978	1990	99.0	66.0	96.0	1600	2200
	Reliant	1981	1989	100.3	82.0		2200	2600

[charlier]

The NEW 4A & 4B Definiton:
The vehicles displayed in the Small Vehicle Class were marketed as sub-compact/economy vehicles.The candidates are compared to a 1965 VW and must meet the following criteria, 95" wheelbase or shorter, 161" total length or shorter, 1-4 cylinder, 91 cid 50hp engine or smaller.

Steve, I was wondering if you might provide some clarification please.

When it comes to the wheelbase, total length and engine size criteria must the vehicle meet all three criteria?
Hopefully, a vehicle must meet all three criteria to be in Class 04-A&B which would make it easier for classifying most vehicles.

FYI, the Volkswagen Rabbit is going to potentially be a pain in someone's behind due to the various engines used in Rabbits.
For example, the 1980 Diesel Rabbit is 48 hp whereas the gasoline versions are 62 hp (carb), and 76 hp (fuel injected).
So, in theory you could have a 1980 Diesel Rabbit in 04-B and the gasoline model Rabbits in their respective 27-N class.
Later model Rabbits have larger gasoline engines with more than 76 hp which puts them in the 27-O/P classes.

FYI Bill, "Volkswagen" is spelled with an "e" not an "o". The 2011 judges manual made that spelling mistake as well which was corrected in 2012.