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Thread: Moved to Class 04B

  1. #51
    Senior Member stock_steve's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Maybe they should've just created a "Crosley-only" class and left everyone else as they were?!
    Stock Steve
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  2. #52
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Ok…I know it is a class under construction…I know it can be tweaked…I know I have to send a letter to the VP of Judging…I get it. But since this a forum on judging…I’m just putting some thoughts out there, and just “stirring the pot”…brainstorming if you will. Wouldn’t it have been nice if the VP would have initiated the topic here to discuss and take in feedback prior to releasing the class? But alas, we have to be re-active and write a letter.
    When folks think Volkswagen…do they automatically picture a Bug only? Lumping every model for one auto maker is pretty thoughtless…kind of like a shot gun affect. Boom…Volkswagens…small cars!
    We’re up to 1986 this year…Where will you put a Mk2 Jetta, Mk 1 GTi, Scirocco or the T2 Vanagon? These cars are not; “small displacement, low horsepower, very low cost, and rather crudely constructed.
    The idea that the class was created to “level the playing field”…I just don’t get. I pondered this while mowing yesterday. There are very few places on an AACA show field that you have “apples to apples” competition. Even in the specific classes for T-Birds, Mustangs & Vettes…etc, etc. Even in those classes you are not 100% “apples to apples” (they are not all exact right?). So, do you just keep whittling down classes until you have a class for 1962 red VW Beetles with red interiors?
    The point of all this is……..I hope the AACA does not put the cart in front of the pony when they try to institute the “Big Car” class for 2015. Be proactive…talk to the members of your club, get feedback, use the AACA Library and do some research before painting with such broad, vague strokes. Let’s work to get things right the first time…….
    I look forward to hanging with all my “small car” brethren at this year’s fall meet.
    Ron Mann
    Historian and Archivist for The Pennsylvania Hill Climb Association (read about it in Oct. 2011 issue of Hemmings)
    1965 SCCA/PHA prepared Notchback, 1966 Kombi, 1968 Beetle, 1969 Kombi, 1970 Squareback, 1971 Fastback, 1972 Subaru GL "The Superoo", 1973 Thing, 1976 Puch Newport, 1977 Puch Maxi, 1983 Rabbit LS, 1986 Cabriolet, 1987 Viper "A" Sports Racer, 1996 Harlequin Golf

  3. #53
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Quote Originally Posted by Stonefish View Post
    But since this a forum on judging…I’m just putting some thoughts out there, and just “stirring the pot”…brainstorming if you will. Wouldn’t it have been nice if the VP would have initiated the topic here to discuss and take in feedback prior to releasing the class? But alas, we have to be re-active and write a letter.

    Yes it would have been nice if everything was asked here first, but in the real world, as much as I love and value it, this discussion forum is not the center of the universe. I think the world would run better if I got to make all of the decisions personally, but that is not going to happen either.

    The AACA makes decision by committees. This forum is a great venue to discuss issues, but we don't make the decision. All that any of us can do is try to keep up with what is happening and provide our opinion and feedback.
    Matthew C. Hinson
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    Senior Member stock_steve's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    So, any post-Hershey reviews about how Class 4B went yesterday?
    Stock Steve
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  5. #55

    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    I don't have a car in here, but made a B-line to see the entrants. I think there were 22 vheicle, and as expected, the majority were VW's. Thanks Ron, it was good to see your collection. The remaining small cars seemed a bit out of place. Sorry more Mets didn't attend this time.

    Two entrants in 04A, seemed lop-sided to Post-war. Maybe the answer, Class 04C for Volkswagons.

  6. #56
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    The weather was great...the location pretty much stank, in more ways than one.

    Most of the folks in the class were less than thrilled about the class composition and location.

    Foot traffic over there was ok at first and then just dropped off the face of the earth.

    Got tired of explaining the "what's this class" & "why did they move you" things...

    Folks at the furtherest end of the row were bailing out real early...and I myself, for the first time ever was ready to leave ASAP too.

    thanks for visiting us LovesOlderPlymouths...I'm sure some of my class mates would agree that we felt a huge disconnect from the show this year.....
    Ron Mann
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    Senior Member stock_steve's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Thanks guys for the review & commentary.
    Stock Steve
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Quote Originally Posted by lovesolderplymouths View Post
    I don't have a car in here, but made a B-line to see the entrants. I think there were 22 vheicle, and as expected, the majority were VW's. Thanks Ron, it was good to see your collection. The remaining small cars seemed a bit out of place. Sorry more Mets didn't attend this time.

    Two entrants in 04A, seemed lop-sided to Post-war. Maybe the answer, Class 04C for Volkswagons.
    Well, let's see, so far, from my completely unscientific observations, it appears the VW people did not ask for this new class (I know I didn't).

    Crosley people seem to be happy with it.

    Still wondering why it all came about?

    Could it be that enough "conventional" car owners in the regular "production" classes complained about VWs (& perhaps some other small cars) being in the same classes with them?

    Just thinking out loud...
    Last edited by stock_steve; October 11th, 2011 at 06:59.
    Stock Steve
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    I am one affected by this change, and have to say the location at Hershey wasnt the best in my mind. First time I did see the new class in person. I will miss being with the mid 50's cars. I always thought it was a great way to view the vehicles, sort of gave you an idea of what other vehicles were on the road at the same time.

    greg

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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Quote Originally Posted by kuhner View Post

    ...I will miss being with the mid 50's cars. I always thought it was a great way to view the vehicles, sort of gave you an idea of what other vehicles were on the road at the same time. ..
    That's kinda how I feel also, Greg.
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Seems like I recall a formal complaint regarding a red Vespa 400 being positioned next to a '59 Cadillac and how it overpowered the micro car in 2009 or '10? Both were in the 27C production class, could this have been the start of class 04B? Someone must know why the new class.--Bob

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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    It does seem silly to have a Vespa in the same class as a '59 Caddy.
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  13. #63

    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    I remember at a local show one time I was parked in a class of cars 1950-1959. It was an overcast totally dreary day. While I was setting up, a beautiful 1959 Caddy pulled in next to me. I ran over to the guy and said "boy am I glad to see you". He gave me a puzzled look and asked why. I told him "It looks like it might rain", which only seemed to add to his confusion til I said "I think I could fit the Crosley in your trunk"!! I don't think he stopped laughing the entire day.
    In any case the contrast between the Vespa and the Cadillac illustrates what I was trying to say in my earlier post. I know that every car is to be judged on its own merits and against standards "as it came from the factory" and doccumentation provided by the owner. I still say it would take a pretty special group of judges to be fair to both parties. The Caddy was pretty excellent from the factory and will be judged against a pretty high standard. The Vespa (no offense Vespa owners) was a much lesser "finished" car and would need to be judged against a lesser standard "as it came from the factory". The fit and finish and materials are not on the same level. How does even the best judge (no offense to the best judges either) evaluate these 2 cars consecutively and be fair to both??? I'm sure it can be done but it would be very difficult. Hence the creation of a class where these cars could be grouped together for evaluation and a simpler job for the judges to be fair. Add to this the fact that many of us small car people think alike, have multiple makes and interests in small cars, have a certain kinship and enjoy each others company (common myseries you know) and the creation of the "small car" class makes sense to me.
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Dave…I can see what you are saying…but I just can’t buy into it. Using a Vespa as an example; A 1959 Vespa was awarded a Repeat Preservation award at this year’s fall meet at Hershey. The same Vespa won a Repeat Preservation in Bristol earlier this year as well, so it must have been doing quite well in the class it was originally shown in.

    A quality car, no matter what maker, is a quality car. I’d like to hear from some of our judges here are on the forum about this theory of a Cadillac vs a Vespa. Judges, do you take account the manufacturer of a car and the possible quality issues that maker may or may not have? What is taught…??

    Next year a 1987 VW GTI may very well be parked next to a Crosley or Vespa in the small car class…will the judges be able to evaluate these two cars consecutively and be fair to both?
    I moved my VW Thing beside a Crosley at the fall meet….you couldn’t see the Hot Shot hidden behind my car at the end of the row. Even the Vespa was tiny compared to the Bugs it was between.

    We’ve heard it from the VW owners that no one is overly stoked to be in this class(many don’t visit this forum)…we heard it from one Crosley owner here on this forum that VW’s don’t belong in this class…letters/emails have been written to the VP of Judging, we hope someone is listening. If you think the small class works for you…great go for it.

    Maybe an owner can choose…give the owner an option to: A) show your car in production classes or, B) show your car in the small car classes. Once you choose, you don’t go back. That seems fair enough?
    Ron Mann
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  15. #65

    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Ron;
    I agree on your point that "a quality car.....is a quality car", it is that evaluation of quality that is difficult for me. Let's talk one of the early Beatles, or even a Thing. No where near the level of fit and finish of a Cadillac of the same time. Now you can over restore it and be at a similar "quality" of the Cadillac, but it will not be restored "as it came from the factory" . I guess we will have to agree to have differing viewpoints on this issue. Having done a little judging and having attended a few judging schools, I still feel this class makes it less difficult for the judges (or maybe I mean me as a beginning judge) to evaluate these cars fairly. I guess if you don't like it you can still enter your cars in the old class they were in but I don't know how rigid AACA is on that . I am still relatively new to AACA and I simply consulted the VP of judging as to where to put my cars. He told me and that's where I went. I hope that this spring when we have an event here in Reading that you will bring a couple of your cars and we can sit and debate in person. I plan on going for my Senior on the Farm O Road, the Hotshot will stay in DPC, and perhaps I'll have my 48 panel delivery ready to try for a first junior. Now there's a debate in classes for you. Does it belong with the Small Cars, commercial, or cars of that year??? I know where I'm going to put it but sit with me on the show field and listen!!!
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  16. #66

    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    If the arguement for the class is a fit and finish issue compared to a Cadillac, then you're implying that VW was still building an product of poor fit and finish in 1986? 1987?

    I would think that a 59 Cadillac would have it harder against a small car. Larger 1/4 panels to have arrow straight, all that chrome plus all the accessories ( A/C, cruise, power everything..).

    If judges aren't allowed to judge a class of car they are familiar with then who is left to judge the class except people that don't understand the fit and finish issue? Wouldn't it be easier to educated the judges and then have the team captain remind his team when they approach one of the said cars at a meet?

    I started out showing in 27I until they expanded the muscle car class and I met a lot of great people that I would never met if I had been just with the MOPAR folk. That's the nice thing about the AACA, it's not a marque show.

  17. #67
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Quote Originally Posted by tcuda340 View Post
    ..... If judges aren't allowed to judge a class of car they are familiar with then who is left to judge the class except people that don't understand the fit and finish issue?
    Bill and I arrived early for the CJEs at Hershey and caught about the last half hour of the Judging School while we waited for the CJEs to start.

    Fit and finish were addressed while we were there. Many vehicles were far from perfect when they came off of the line directly from the factory. The instructor did mention that and that if a judge sees an obvious problem with the fit ie. a door rubbing or hood rubbing then a deduction would be in order. But a slight misalignment should not be deducted for as many came out that way.

    Several years ago we were in Judging School and we were asked to walk outside and "judge" a car that had been loaned from one of the local dealerships. Then we went back inside and we were asked how many points we had taken off. The answer should have been zero as the car was "as it could have come from the factory".
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  18. #68

    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Susan;
    You have opened up an area that still gives me some consternation in judging. "as it could have come from the factory", " as it came from the factory", or "as it should have come from the factory" all get batted around. I got into this discussion last year while working on my Farm O Road. The frame welds on every FOR I ever looked at (somewhere around 25 of them by now) are extremely rough, to the extent that we have come to the conclusion that they were put together using a jig in the plant maintenance shop instead of on any production line. That is how they "came from the factory". (first question is how do you doccument crummy welds for the judges...[I did solve the problem]). They "could have come from the factory" with smoother finished welds (somewhat over restored...no deductions for that) and they "should have come from the factory" with nice smooth welds (VERY over restored...no deductions for that either). So, sans factory doccumentation, how do you restore the frame?? Leave it as it came from the factory and take the chance that the judge will accept your word, or overrestore it as it could or should have come from the factory?? The answer was to leave it as it "came from the factory" and assume that the judge will accept your word that is the way it was. That is exactly what happened!!! I have since found a factory picture with enough resolution that it shows the roughness of the factory welds so I now have my doccumentation!! See you should have stopped to see me at Charlotte!!!
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  19. #69
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Quote Originally Posted by DAVE A View Post
    ..... See you should have stopped to see me at Charlotte!!!
    Yes, I should have. But my 60-year-old brain forgot. I will try to do better next year.

    I wish I knew the brand of car that I saw and judged years ago. I have mentioned it here before when the subject somes up about how they could have/did/should have left the factory. It had the most awful black tarry looking stuff around/in the holes in the firewall where the wires came through the firewall. I don't think it could have looked any worse than it did. But according to the factory photo it came out of the factory that way.

    They had a can of that glop and the person on the production line would reach over, grab that stobby old brush out of that can and coat the holes and then then next person fished the wires through, so there was some of that stuff on the wires too.

    Not neat and clean but 100% correct.
    Susan W. Linden

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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Before this thread wanders off subject...like so many do....

    I'll have to disagree with you, yet again. "no where near the fit and finish"... Just remember the old saying that a VW Beetle will float...I'm sure a Caddy, from the same era, never claimed that! Click this link for a flash back.........

    how long does a vw beetle float? Just watch! - YouTube

    Dave, I wish we had the choice of what class we could go in, that would be great!
    There is no debate about it now, you have no choice for your Crosley Panel. Your in 04B. Prior to this new class stuff...I would think if the van had history as a commercial vehicle (with logos and such) it would go with the commercial vehicles. If it was used for home use, I would stick it in the production year class.

    I'd like to be at the Spring event in Reading...not sure what I'll bring out. Maybe the class will be revisited and revamped
    Ron Mann
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  21. #71
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Some of you know me personally, and others only through the AACA Forum.
    At Hershey I asked to team captain 4A&B, and the Chief Judge for the meet granted my request. Several of the Volkswagen owners in 4A&B were pleased. My Team did the junior and senior candidates.

    I have a few problems with vehicle designations for this class. AACA needs to consider possibly making a few changes. Most of you on this topic will agree.
    I am composing a letter to the vp of class judging, Herb Oakes about possible changes to classes 4A&B. I talked to Herb; we are flea market neighbors, about my thoughts for the new classes. I also talked this over with my other flea market neighbor, Eric Marsh. Both said the same thing. Write it down and send it in.

    I do have a major problem with the location at Hershey. It was HORRIBLE. The new classes should have been placed between classes 3 & 5. I realize being a former Hershey Region member exactly how much work is needed to accommodate changes. However, the location of the new classes MUST be resolved. There is room on the main show field for the new classes, and for DPC. Additionally, HPOF and DPC should be moved as they have been moved at other national meets. As a national director told me ‘DPC and HPOF are valuable to restorers because of the originality of the vehicles’, and this was some of the reason for the location change at national meets. The class location issue is something that only Hershey can fix. National can ‘SUGGEST’ change, but only Hershey Region can make the change.
    When I asked about the location of 4A&B I was told that this problem would have to be addressed to Hershey region.

    My suggestion is that several of us need to write to Hershey Region.
    Their address is: Hershey Region – AACA. Box 305, Hershey, Pa, 17033. Their e-mail address is listed on their web-site.
    PLEASE WRITE them, and suggest change. They have almost a full year to get it done.

    If anyone who is in classes 4A & 4B wants to see suggestions, and contribute please e-mail me. I will not post my suggestions on the Forum.


    I have one final comment on judging. Judging school is open to ALL AACA members. Perhaps all show car owners should consider attending a judging school to get an understanding of the criteria used by the judges on the show field.
    Jim Siegfried
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Jim, It was good to see you at the helm for this class.

    Before I worry about the location of the class at Hershey...I want to see the class get fixed. I'm really hoping VW's are removed from the class and placed back in the production classes First things, first...right?

    As you know...from my previous life as President & Event Coordinator for the Harrisburg Area Volkswagen Club...I'm friends with pretty much all the VW owners that show with AACA in the area. I have sent them emails to them prompting them to send an email to Herb as well (do you know if he is an active emailer...I would hate for our notes to just sit in an inbox in cyberspace).

    Dave brings up an excellent point with his Crosley panel. VW had panel vans too...and very extensive history for commercial use they would have the same issue. Someday...someday...I will own a VW fire truck (yes they are out there!)...where would that go now, 04B??

    Back to Matt's comment about this forum not being the center of the universe; for one that may be a real buzzkill for some folks...but on a serious note: This web site, forum page & topic heading (judging) were set up by the AACA as a tool for discussion and communication. There has been some excellent talk and valid points made about this class change, here on this thread. I hope the VP of Judging is, at least, being a "fly on the wall" and viewing this stuff.
    Ron Mann
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  23. #73
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    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Harrisburg, Pa. 6 miles NE of Hershey as the crow flies. Longer by road.
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    Smile Re: Moved to Class 04B

    HEADS UP! I was looking at the Hershey sub-forum and found this e-mail address. Here it is: fallmeet@hersheyaaca.org
    Jim Siegfried
    Nbr: 802500

  24. #74
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Harrisburg, Pa. 6 miles NE of Hershey as the crow flies. Longer by road.
    Posts
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    Smile Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Quote Originally Posted by Stonefish View Post
    I have sent them emails to them prompting them to send an email to Herb as well (do you know if he is an active emailer...I would hate for our notes to just sit in an inbox in cyberspace).

    This web site, forum page & topic heading (judging) were set up by the AACA as a tool for discussion and communication. There has been some excellent talk and valid points made about this class change, here on this thread. I hope the VP of Judging is, at least, being a "fly on the wall" and viewing this stuff.
    Ron,
    I don't know if Herb is very active with e-mail. Good point about the forum. We all know that Steve M. monitors the forum. I'll bet he'll be speaking up soon. I'll also venture a guess that Steve will be talking to Herb shortly about the 4's class, and I imagine other board members will all be looking this over.
    Here's hoping that something constructive will be achieved.
    Jim Siegfried
    Nbr: 802500

  25. #75
    Senior Member
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    Oct 2006
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    Hershey, PA
    Posts
    351

    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    yea...I feel bad for Steve always having to cover the bases here on the fourm. I'm sure that isn't part of his job description!
    Ron Mann
    Historian and Archivist for The Pennsylvania Hill Climb Association (read about it in Oct. 2011 issue of Hemmings)
    1965 SCCA/PHA prepared Notchback, 1966 Kombi, 1968 Beetle, 1969 Kombi, 1970 Squareback, 1971 Fastback, 1972 Subaru GL "The Superoo", 1973 Thing, 1976 Puch Newport, 1977 Puch Maxi, 1983 Rabbit LS, 1986 Cabriolet, 1987 Viper "A" Sports Racer, 1996 Harlequin Golf

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