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Thread: Moved to Class 04B

  1. #26
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    ^^probably....so the class can be wedged into some portion of the show field that no one will visit!
    Since cars are not being "judged against each other" as we have all heard...what difference does being in a class with big cars matter? From my experiences, people are typically happy to be around a small car on the show field...it opens up some space to sit around! I love watching class neighbors who are back to back with big cars....they don't have space for a chair!
    Ron Mann
    Historian and Archivist for The Pennsylvania Hill Climb Association (read about it in Oct. 2011 issue of Hemmings)
    1965 SCCA/PHA prepared Notchback, 1966 Kombi, 1968 Beetle, 1969 Kombi, 1970 Squareback, 1971 Fastback, 1972 Subaru GL "The Superoo", 1973 Thing, 1976 Puch Newport, 1977 Puch Maxi, 1983 Rabbit LS, 1986 Cabriolet, 1987 Viper "A" Sports Racer, 1996 Harlequin Golf

  2. #27
    Super Moderator Steve Moskowitz's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    You guys are sure grouchy and it is the holidays. Do you think the club benefits in some way doing this? It is potentially more expensive, more trouble, etc. We have meets all around the country and people with smaller cars have been stating their opinion year after year. A large committee made the decision to add this class which will be parked in the sequence of the numerical classes. This was based on a LOT of input. AACA has done the same thing over the years in most of the classes and eventually it all gets sorted out.

    The new 2011 judging guidelines are at the presses now will be posted online late next month. There are a lot of new ideas the committee is working on and they will unfold in the year to come. Things will be clearer about the improvements the club is trying to bring to the showfield. There is a written survey that has already been sent out and next week a phone survey is being done to get more input.

    If the members who spoke out about wanting the class change are wrong then make your feelings known to the committee! The ones that wanted the change sure did!

    Happy Holidays everyone.
    Antique Automobile Club of America
    Executive Director

  3. #28
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    I'm not grouchy...It really does not matter much to me. I just find it a bit odd. I was hoping for import sedan classes for xmas!
    Last edited by Stonefish; December 26th, 2010 at 09:49.
    Ron Mann
    Historian and Archivist for The Pennsylvania Hill Climb Association (read about it in Oct. 2011 issue of Hemmings)
    1965 SCCA/PHA prepared Notchback, 1966 Kombi, 1968 Beetle, 1969 Kombi, 1970 Squareback, 1971 Fastback, 1972 Subaru GL "The Superoo", 1973 Thing, 1976 Puch Newport, 1977 Puch Maxi, 1983 Rabbit LS, 1986 Cabriolet, 1987 Viper "A" Sports Racer, 1996 Harlequin Golf

  4. #29
    Super Moderator Steve Moskowitz's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    PLEASE CALL ME...you get some slack since I know the bad influences on you from this area!
    Antique Automobile Club of America
    Executive Director

  5. #30
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    uh-oh...called to the office again!! I'll give a shout out in the new year or stop by sometime!
    Last edited by Stonefish; December 26th, 2010 at 09:49.
    Ron Mann
    Historian and Archivist for The Pennsylvania Hill Climb Association (read about it in Oct. 2011 issue of Hemmings)
    1965 SCCA/PHA prepared Notchback, 1966 Kombi, 1968 Beetle, 1969 Kombi, 1970 Squareback, 1971 Fastback, 1972 Subaru GL "The Superoo", 1973 Thing, 1976 Puch Newport, 1977 Puch Maxi, 1983 Rabbit LS, 1986 Cabriolet, 1987 Viper "A" Sports Racer, 1996 Harlequin Golf

  6. #31
    Super Moderator Steve Moskowitz's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Ron, really need to talk to you about the hill climb history. You have a PM with my cell number. Need your help!
    Antique Automobile Club of America
    Executive Director

  7. #32
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Hey Steve, can I come to the office also? I need some guidance on the new class.
    Jim Siegfried
    Nbr: 802500

  8. #33
    Senior Member stock_steve's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    I just found out about this.

    How do I find out if we've been moved there?

    We've *always* enjoyed showing in Class 27A with our '54 VW...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Stock Steve
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  9. #34
    Senior Member stock_steve's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Quote Originally Posted by stock_steve View Post
    I just found out about this.

    How do I find out if we've been moved there?

    We've *always* enjoyed showing in Class 27A with our '54 VW...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hello?

    Can anyone explain what's going on?

    Can we still show with our '54 VW in Class 27A, where we've enjoyed participating since the '80s?

    Incidentally, I am a dues-paying AACA member (596580J).
    Last edited by stock_steve; September 25th, 2011 at 18:41.
    Stock Steve
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  10. #35
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    According to the 2011 Judges Manual your car will be in 4b as will all VWs from 1942-1986.
    1932 Packard 900 Conv Cpe
    1955 Jaguar XK-140 Drophead
    1948 Buick Woody
    1931 Model A Tudor
    :o All unrestored, shoemaker's kids, you know?

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  11. #36
    Senior Member stock_steve's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Quote Originally Posted by Restorer32 View Post
    According to the 2011 Judges Manual your car will be in 4b as will all VWs from 1942-1986.
    Thanks Restorer32.

    I guess AACA must've figured that more people would be happy about this than not.
    Stock Steve
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  12. #37

    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Quote Originally Posted by stock_steve View Post
    I just found out about this.

    How do I find out if we've been moved there?

    We've *always* enjoyed showing in Class 27A with our '54 VW...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Steve,

    Class 04-A is "Small Vehicles, Specifically Named through 1941".
    Class 04-B is "Small Vehicles, Specifically Named through 1942 thru 1986".

    Somewhere I do have the list of "Specifically Named" vehicles.

    All VWs (yes even VW Busses, Single & Double Cabs) are in these classes based on the year cutoffs.
    At most meets this year, VWs have been well represented in class 04-B.
    I think it will be very interesting to see how many total cars are in these new classes at Fall Hershey.

    BTW, does your question about this class mean that you & Diane will be at Fall Hershey this year after all?
    If you are going to be there, I look forward to seeing you both.
    Charlie

  13. #38
    Senior Member stock_steve's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Quote Originally Posted by charlier View Post
    Steve,

    Class 04-A is "Small Vehicles, Specifically Named through 1941".
    Class 04-B is "Small Vehicles, Specifically Named through 1942 thru 1986".

    Somewhere I do have the list of "Specifically Named" vehicles.

    All VWs (yes even VW Busses, Single & Double Cabs) are in these classes based on the year cutoffs.
    At most meets this year, VWs have been well represented in class 04-B.
    I think it will be very interesting to see how many total cars are in these new classes at Fall Hershey.

    BTW, does your question about this class mean that you & Diane will be at Fall Hershey this year after all?
    If you are going to be there, I look forward to seeing you both.
    Thanks for the info Charlie.

    We will only be there for Wednesday and Thursday this year, just to walk around and see what we can while we're there. We'll keep our eyes open in case we may happen to run into you in the flea market fields.

    Unforseen situations caused us to change our original plans, and we will not be able to be around for the car show on Saturday.

    I wish you and everyone a good time!
    Stock Steve
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  14. #39
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Here's one for you all. Where does a Karmann Ghia get placed? Built by Karmann Coachworks, Designed by the Ghia Studio's, and powered by, and sold by Volkswagen. Neither Karmann nor Ghia are/were car sellers. They designed, and built cars for the sellers.
    What we have here is a missing link in the new small car class. A Karmann Ghia is only 1/3rd. genuine Volkswagen, and although it will be in the new 4's class it should have a separate name assignment. In other words name the car, and don't lump it in with all the other Volkswagens.
    What will happen if a Hebmuller, Rometsch, Dannenhauer & Stauss, or Beutler happen to show up for an AACA National Meet? These are all coach built Volkswagen powered cars. They should be identified by name in Class 4 A/B.
    I imagine there are other Class 4 cars that should be identified by name, and I realize that class 4 is "A Work In Progress'. Perhaps AACA National should solicit the membership for assistance with this class. Those of us who own 'small cars' would probably be willing to assist.
    Jim Siegfried
    Nbr: 802500

  15. #40

    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Jim, There is a one page list of various "Small Cars" that make of the 04-A and 04-B classes although it has not been widely published. BTW, Yes, Karmann Ghias are in Class 04-B. The meet at Stowe, VT this year had a couple of Ghia in the class. No doubt Hershey will have some also.

    To be honest, I believe that the VP of Class Judging & AACA National should have sent out a letter TO ALL car owners impacted by this new class and ASKED THEIR OPINIONS, THOUGHTS & SUGGESTIONS BEFORE MAKING THIS CHANGE. Every, single owner that I have talked with so far RECEIVED NO SUCH COMMUNICATION. Some of the issues with this class (like having VW Busses, Single Cabs and Double Cabs in the "Small Car Class") could have been avoided had the powers that be gone to the trouble of just asking the owners BEFORE they pushed through this class. Hopefully, after Fall Hershey the powers that be at AACA National will see the wisdom is seeking the knowledge from those that own these cars to rectify their mistakes and fix this class.

    Speaking of mistakes/work, shouldn't Crosley Trucks be in the "Small Car Class"??? At the Bristol Meet I saw a beautiful Crosley Truck but it was in another class at this meet. Maybe that was just a registration mistake. If it was not, then this group of vehicles should be in the 04A or 04B class by the definition of this class (ie small).

    BTW, looks like the 04-A & 04-B classes at Fall Hershey have about 25 to 30 vehicles in them. Not such a "small class" for "small cars".

    Also, anyone looking for Classes 04-A & 04-B at Fall Hershey they are located just inside the "Blue Entrance" off of North Hockersville Road next to the DPC Class. I sure hope the class judges and the National Award Judges can find these classes or do not forget we are there. I know of some owners in this class that are less than pleased with this location on the show field.
    Charlie

  16. #41
    Super Moderator MCHinson's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    I don't have a dog in this fight. For informational purposes...

    Here is the current description of the class from the Judging Guidelines:

    Production vehicles built with a small frame and small
    engine: named vehicles only. The vehicles can attract
    a large audience due to their miniature size; placing
    them in other classes can cause them to be hidden
    from view. This class is still being developed and it is
    recognized that there are vehicles that can and will be
    added to the list of those named with the approval of
    the VP-Class Judging.

    American Austin
    American Bantam
    Austin Cooper
    Autobianchi
    Bantam
    BMW Isetta
    Citroen 2CV
    Crofton
    Crosley
    DKW
    Honda S500/S600
    Isetta
    Iso Isetta
    King Midget
    Metropolitan
    Nash Metropolitan
    Morris Mini Cooper
    Morris Minor
    Peel
    Playboy
    Renault Caravelle
    Subaru 360
    Vespa 400
    Velorex
    Volkswagon

    It would seem that Crosley Trucks would belong in this class, as it does not say small cars, it says small vehicles. Hopefully some Crosley Truck owner will seek clarification along with other small vehicles owners who have any questions or suggestions for this class.
    Matthew C. Hinson
    1937 Buick Century, 1954 Buick Special - For Sale, 1984 Buick Riviera, 1989 Buick Park Avenue
    AACA Life Member, MAFCA, BCA

  17. #42

    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Well, I don't know about trucks for sure, but my Farm O Road was shown and won its first junior at Charlotte this spring in class 04-B. I did hear from a few spectators that it belonged in another class however, the judges liked it just where it was. I had asked Herb Oakes in advance where to put it and he decided it belonged there!!
    51 Crosley Hotshot
    51 Crosley Supersports
    50 Crosley Farm O Road
    41 Crosley Convertable coupe
    48 Crosley Panel Delivery
    48 Crosley Convertable
    52 Crosley Wagon
    49 Crosley Wagon
    47 Crosley Pickup
    ?? 3/4 Midget Crosley Powered
    48 Crosley Wagon
    52 Crosley Farm O Road
    50 Crosley Super Hotshot

  18. #43
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    There was a Ghia that was shown in the sports car class for a couple of years. I guess by the new rule, they should be yanked into the new class....as Charlie points out.
    So, by rule (since a VW Bus is in the small car class) if a car is smaller than a VW Bus...It would/should go into the new class. BUT, why couldn't a Ghia go in with the sports cars!?!? Loop hole alert, loop hole alert!!
    Almost every car in the sports car classes are smaller than a VW Bus! So...who makes the call what is a sports car and what is a small car?? A Ghia is sporty! Oh no…wait... the list states; VOLKSWAGEN…PERIOD***

    Let us talk about the Crosley truck…it can't be in with the trucks?? A VW Single or Double cab…can't be in with the trucks?? By definition of the class new class; CROSLEY & VW…period
    Hence why this new class is kinda silly....without a criteria or plan it is just a jumble fart.

    I look at the stated reasoning for this class…and then I look at the list…and I just can't stop my head from shaking from back and forth….put it back to what it was, or start an import sedan class. Most of the cars on the list are imports, at least there will be some easy to follow logic on the class structure.

    And as predicted on December 22nd::: "so the class can be wedged into some portion of the show field that no one will visit!"
    Have you checked out the show field layout? South - East Corner in front of DPC cars (from what I can tell from the scan)
    Whomever the small car owners were, that were upset that their cars were lost among the "big" cars in the regular classes, they'll love this location….

    ***the best part…as per the 2011 AACA Judges Handbook, the new class will include all VOLKSWAGONS….funny, I own Volkswagens…guess I'm out?
    Ron Mann
    Historian and Archivist for The Pennsylvania Hill Climb Association (read about it in Oct. 2011 issue of Hemmings)
    1965 SCCA/PHA prepared Notchback, 1966 Kombi, 1968 Beetle, 1969 Kombi, 1970 Squareback, 1971 Fastback, 1972 Subaru GL "The Superoo", 1973 Thing, 1976 Puch Newport, 1977 Puch Maxi, 1983 Rabbit LS, 1986 Cabriolet, 1987 Viper "A" Sports Racer, 1996 Harlequin Golf

  19. #44
    Super Moderator MCHinson's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    As I said, I don't have a dog in this fight....

    I suggest small vehicle owners express their thoughts to the VP of Class Judging. I am sure that AACA will be happy to tweak this new class to suit the majority. I think that the idea for a small vehicle class is a good idea, but obvioulsy the implementation could use some tweaking.
    Matthew C. Hinson
    1937 Buick Century, 1954 Buick Special - For Sale, 1984 Buick Riviera, 1989 Buick Park Avenue
    AACA Life Member, MAFCA, BCA

  20. #45
    Kiski Valley Region AACA dalef62's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    One vehicle I don't think should be in the new class is the Volkswagon. To me they are not mini cars, they are normal size, like Chevettes, corvairs, pintos, etc. Heck with the newer cars today most of them will fit into this class in the future... Maybe there needs to be a wheel base, track width, engine size formula. Just my opinion.
    Dale
    1946 Crosley Sedan
    1949 Crosley Hotshot
    1950 Crosley Pickup
    1950 Crosley Hotshot
    1950 Crosley Convertible
    1950 Crosley FOR
    1951 Crosley Super Station Wagon
    1951 Crosley Super Station Wagon
    1952 Crosley Super Sports
    1957 Ford Skyliner Convert.
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    1966 Mustang Convert.
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  21. #46
    Senior Member Jim Bollman's Avatar
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    They should probably add a few more sub-groups to class 4. At the very least they should break out vehicles over 1 Liter. If they are really as many cars as reported in the class more ways of slicing the group can probably be added depending on the mix of cars that are being shown.
    Jim...

    AACA Life Member #091218
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    1949 Crosley StationWagon
    1951 Crosley FarmOroad
    1950 Ford F1 Stake Truck

  22. #47

    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    Quote Originally Posted by dalef62 View Post
    One vehicle I don't think should be in the new class is the Volkswagon. To me they are not mini cars, they are normal size, like Chevettes, corvairs, pintos, etc. Heck with the newer cars today most of them will fit into this class in the future... Maybe there needs to be a wheel base, track width, engine size formula. Just my opinion.
    Dale
    Good point. There in lies the rub for some people. What the heck is the actual definition of "Small Vehicle"???? Throwing all VWs (especially busses) into this class makes it seem silly. What about the VW Pickup Truck made from 1980-84? When I finish restoring my pickup I will be showing in at AACA Meets. That vehicle is 14.5 feet long. Is that a "Small Vehicle"?

    Based on the current list, Chevettes, Pintos, AMC Spirits & Hornets and a host of others should be included in this class. Using wheel base, track width and engine size is a good place to start. Using just engine size, for instance, is not good enough. VW Busses which are rather large when it comes to dimensions can have rather small engines (under 2.0L).

    This all comes back to how this class was created. Had the powers that be at AACA bothered to solicit more feedback and get more information from owners of these vehicles this class would not be such a "Work in Progress" and require so much "tweaking". Come on, how much would it have cost to send out letters to the owners of the 147 "Small Vehicles" that were moved to these classes (04A & 04B) to ask for feedback & information? After all, the AACA expects their members to send letters to various AACA VPs when there is an issue or concern why can't they do the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bollman View Post
    They should probably add a few more sub-groups to class 4. At the very least they should break out vehicles over 1 Liter. If they are really as many cars as reported in the class more ways of slicing the group can probably be added depending on the mix of cars that are being shown.
    I came up with the number of cars I posted previously by simply counting the spaces allocated for the class on the 2011 Show field map. The number I posted is by no means the official number of vehicles registered in the class. I will say however that I have counted spaces like this in the past and it is a VERY accurate way to determine how many cars at least registered for a class (some cars are not always on the show field due to various reasons).
    Charlie

  23. #48

    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    I agree w/ Stonefish on several counts. Trucks are trucks. VW commercial vehicles and Crossley trucks are no different than a Model A pick-up, and they are not in the Model A classes.

    Most vehicles shown to date have been imports (except Crossley) as most on the list are foreign manufacture. What about American "small" cars not on the list? Import sedan classes with a possible wheelbase limitation would have been easier to define. Like Euro sedan and Asian sedan. Or maybe just a break-out of VW, as they seem to dominate.

    Or maybe things were best left unchanged.

    I am looking forward to the class at Hershey to see what's there, but they are in the boonies according to the map.

    BTW, HPOF, where Iam is still way in the back. I thought we were to be in the front. I guess everyone will know where to find us.

  24. #49

    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    I'm not sure I understand as a Crosley owner, (not Crossley which was an english vehicle) what the problem is here. The AACA made an attempt to create a new class for a certain type of vehicle in order to give them an opportunity to compete on a level playing fiield. The vehicles in the class are in general small displacement, low horsepower, very low cost, and rather crudely constructed.
    I would not want to put my Hotshot in a class next to a fine 150,000.00 sports car and have a judge try to evaluate it. It would be tough for even the most knowledgeable and well informed judge to take even the finest Crosley Hotshot that has been restored to well above factory standards and award it a first junior while seeing numerous flaws in that far more valuable sports car and not giving it an award (or the points needed in his area to get one). It wouldn't be fair to the owner of the sports car and not to the Crosley owner. The same logic carries for most other areas where most of these cars would find themselves. These cars came from the factory pretty crude (I had to doccument the absolutely primative frame welds on the Farm O Road with factory pictures of the same) and it is just too big of a gap for a judge to have to cross.
    Crosleys as a group belong together as almost all the models are slight modifications of each other within a year. For example, the pickup is, for the most part, a station wagon with the rear windows cut off. They have exactly the same engine, transmission, and rear and share almost all body parts and interior.
    I have talked to a number of people who WERE consulted on this class as it was being created. I personally spent a number of phone calls with Herb Oakes during the period and he was very considerate of the points made during our discussions even when we disagreed. ( I was, at the time petitioning to have the Farm O Road included in limited production vehicles) The class is in development and I think is off to a great start as shown by the interest I hear in the upcoming Hershey show. If you have a point to be made, put it in a well thought out letter with supporting information and send it to the VP class judging. I can assure you, you will be heard and you opinion carefully considered. I would be surprised if you don't get a phone call.
    51 Crosley Hotshot
    51 Crosley Supersports
    50 Crosley Farm O Road
    41 Crosley Convertable coupe
    48 Crosley Panel Delivery
    48 Crosley Convertable
    52 Crosley Wagon
    49 Crosley Wagon
    47 Crosley Pickup
    ?? 3/4 Midget Crosley Powered
    48 Crosley Wagon
    52 Crosley Farm O Road
    50 Crosley Super Hotshot

  25. #50
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    Re: Moved to Class 04B

    @ Matt...I will compose a letter and send it to Herb. Being a person that shows "small" cars, it would have been nice to be on the front end of this class change, rather than being on the tail end. I take it as; if they wanted opinions, they would have asked?

    @Dale...yes...yes...a formula...something other than a list of cars. I like structure...what can I say!

    @ Dave A….This is the first time we've heard the class was created to level the playing field. I’ve always been told…it does not matter what cars are in your class…your car is being judged on its own merits…not compared to any other? I’ve had VWs in the same class as Caddys & Mercedes Benz…I’ve gotten 1st Jr. I don’t know anyone that was involved with the development of the new class…I suppose we weren’t as lucky?
    Ron Mann
    Historian and Archivist for The Pennsylvania Hill Climb Association (read about it in Oct. 2011 issue of Hemmings)
    1965 SCCA/PHA prepared Notchback, 1966 Kombi, 1968 Beetle, 1969 Kombi, 1970 Squareback, 1971 Fastback, 1972 Subaru GL "The Superoo", 1973 Thing, 1976 Puch Newport, 1977 Puch Maxi, 1983 Rabbit LS, 1986 Cabriolet, 1987 Viper "A" Sports Racer, 1996 Harlequin Golf

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