E & J Model 20 Headlights - Kissel Gold Bug - Page 2

Bob McAnlis · February 5th, 2009

Restorer32:

Are you a judge yourself, or a know it all? This vintage does not seem to be your specialty. Please stick to your own area of expertise.

Bob McAnlis
Chagrin Falls, OH
AACA Chief Judge
Grand National Dayton OH 1994

Restorer32 · February 5th, 2009

Yes I am a judge with 65 or so credits. I judged at the Dayton Grand National by the way, nice show. We have restored a Kissel Gold Bug to Senior Award status. We also restored a '27 Kissel Brougham which received its Senior Award at Hershey '08 and was nominated for a National Award. If Mr. Hausman did not want an honest answer to his question why did he ask it? I challenge you to dispute any statement I have made.

windjamer · February 5th, 2009

32, my hats off to you. I went back and reread all your previous comments, I can not understand what you said that would invoke Bobs post. I must comend you on your cool, I would demand snow-balls at 20 paces the first Sat. in july.

Restorer32 · February 5th, 2009

I'm a lover not a fighter. The Kissel Gold Bug is a delightfully funky car. The earlier Bugs had only one door and it was on the wrong side. Nearly impossible for a person of any size to climb into with the top up but very comfortable once you are in. I love the E&J lights. If the car were mine I would leave them on and take the deduction or maybe install a set of factory lights for judging. Who knows, these lights may have been factory authorized but I have seen no evidence of that.The one we restored was displayed in the Kissel Museum for many years and is featured on their brochure. It is now owned by a European collector and is being used on tours in France. There are several Gold Bugs purporting to be Amelia Earhart's car but I've been told her actual car is on display at the Forney Museum in Chicago?

ron hausmann · February 5th, 2009

All,
Let's just drop the questions. I was just looking for answers, not to stir up controversy.
There are 237 Kissels total left in the world, 37 of them are Kissel Speedsters between 1919 and 1928 (Escluding "White Eagles"). About 2/3 rds of these are restored. There are only 5 Kissel Model 6-45 Gold Bug Speedsters like mine, 3 being restored, the other 2 in pieces. Because of their rarity, there are next to no originals left and the factory paperwork was thrown out in the 1930's. Thus the remaining "experts" are just a hand ful of us who typically know far more about this rare, beautiful car, than others.
My car was never driven much and not mechanically restored, according to Bill Ruger Sr's Collection Mechanic who helped Mr. Ruger with his collection in the 1980's. It had 20,116 miles on it when they bought it, and it has about 400 miles more now in my possession. I beieve this to be correct because the engine internals were never opened up by Ruger's crew, and they are still quite "new", after flushing out the block's 80-year old rust dams. It is possibly as "original" as you can get.
I will keep my E & J's on it, as they are probably, per the kissel museum, original Factory authorized accessories. They look good and "winning" isn't as important to me as sharing the enjoyment of this beauty, as is with everyone.
Take care, -- RON HAUSMANN P.E.

Bob McAnlis · February 6th, 2009

Okay guys, and to Restorer32, sorry for being a crab.

I was very active in Judging early on, but have not been for the last 10 or 12 years, due to having to judge newer and newer cars. My real interest is brass, but it extends up to mid 20's, and early 30's. In Ron's last post above, he makes the point that I have the real issue about. Original factory information on most early cars does not exist, and to be bound by what THE FACTORY authorizes is a decision that does not work. It works great for 50s to 80s, but not early on.

I am restoring a car now for which an original salesman's handbook (1912) was found by me in the the remains of the factory archives in a locked area of a historical library. It contains option prices for different lamps, winsdhields, horns, speedometers, options for trip in brass, gunmetal, or nickel, or painted over. That is a very rare piece. It also mentions an "allowance for cars delivered without lamp equipment".

Most makes, other than GM or Ford models dont have anything like this. The documentation that does exist are period photos of cars on the street, or if lucky, cars at dealerships, or the original sales info. If an owner would present to me original photos showing these lights on the Kissel, or a period trunk, I would accept them and and judge them for the quality of restoration. Based on other discussion above, my logic would be that one dealer had the cars delivered with a light deduct, and then sold the cars with the E&Js. By the way, I think in a book by John Conde on Cars and the Stars, or some similar title, there is one or more photos of a Kissel like this carrying these lights. I am travelling and will have to verify that when I am home.

In any case, one rule does not fit all makes. That is a difficult position to present in the judging manual and I feel for AACA in that regard. So anyway, sorry to be on a bit of a soapbox. The Kissel is a GREAT car, and I am sure the work of Restorer 32 is beautiful. I just flipped on the textbook response.

Bob McAnlis

MCHinson · February 6th, 2009

Bob, I really enjoyed reading your second post on this topic much more than your first. Thanks.

A little bit of common sense goes a long way in judging. I think the textbook response was appropriate for the questions asked, but a full discussion of the issue is certainly better with the inclusion of the points mentioned in your second post.

I think we all agree that the Kissel is a great car and the lights are "cool". Hopefully, Ron will be able to show documentation about their original use on Kissel's. Hopefully, the judges will be reasonable as they have the authority to accept documentation other than factory literature to support the lights. Factory literature must be accepted, but other documentation can be accepted. Common sense should prevail on these types of issues.

Restorer32 · February 6th, 2009

If I were judging, in lieu of factory documentation I would accept a period Kissel advertisement, possibly a period photo though that would be a bit more problematic. I would likely not accept a quote from a modern publication without seeing how the writers came to their conclusion. Luckily there is quite a bit of material available on Kissels, including parts lists, owner's manuals, sales brochures, etc. As an example, the Gold Bug we restored came to us with an original appearing "fat man" steering wheel. Aside from the fact that it would be virtually impossible to enter the vehicle without the tilting wheel, we were able to find a period ad, actually a line drawing, showing the wheel. The parts manual for our 6-45 Gold bug also listed a separate part # for a steering wheel only used on the speedsters but not described in any way. This documentation was accepted in AACA judging. Model 6-55 Kissels are recognized by the CCCA. 6-45 Models are not, even though the 6-55 engine is based on the earlier 6-45 block. I encourage anyone who finds themselves in the neighborhood to visit the Hartford Heritage Museum in Hartford Wisconsin. Very interesting smaller museum dedicated to Kissel and Nash. It also houses much Kissel family memorabilia.

ron hausmann · February 6th, 2009

Bob McAnlis,
If you have any information on E & J's on Kissels, Jon Conde's book, or their availability in 1923, I would love to get copies in any way. Thanks to all for your help.
Restorer 32,
You may not know that i petitioned the CCCA to accept the 10 or so remaining Kissel Gold Bugs like mine, from 1920 to 1923, as full classics. These earlier Gold Bugs have the larger 6-45 engine that is bigger than the Full Classic 6-55's, and identical to all but experts. And as you know, Kissel did put 6-45 engines in 6-55 Gold Bugs, which are now CCCA classics anyway. They mixed and match engines and bumpers back then as you know.
CCCA said no, because the "Gold Bug" was not a factory term or series, but rather a publically acclaimed nom. I am going to challenge them again for membership but use the term "Speedster", which all "Gold Bugs", and which is a factory term.
It makes absolutely no sense that the Kissel Speedsters in 1923 which have bigger engines should not be classics, when the smaller engined ones are.
Nuf said. -- RON --

Restorer32 · February 6th, 2009

I am confused. It is my understanding that the 6-55 Kissels are CCCA sanctioned, regardless of body style? The 6-55 is basically the same engine as the 6-45, the only internal difference being the 6-55 has a timing chain where the 6-45 had a fiber gear operating the cam.