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Thread: Documentation

  1. #1
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    Documentation

    In the threads on this forum I read about asking owners for documetation. What are we talking about here ?<BR>If you have restored a car to the best of your ability what do you need to have to back it up ? Do you also need to prove, for example, that the green paint was the correct green used in 1950 ? Do you have to do this for everything or documentation used only for exceptions ?<BR>Thanks all.<BR>Bill
    Bill

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    Buick Club of America

    1950 Buick Super Estate Wagon
    1947 4 Door Sedan
    1964 Riviera

  2. #2
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    Re: Documentation

    Bill,<BR> I think you will find it very seldom that judges will ask for documentation because they always seem to know more than the person who spends all their time and money in the research and restoration of his automobile. You will see in your judging manual that when a judge questions an owner on any authentic component of his vehicle, the owner is required to produce documentation or the judge is free to use his own discretion. My contention has always been , if my vehicle is docked one point on anything other than workmanship, I as an owner,should be asked to document it. But over 30 years of showing , I don't ever remenber being asked for documentation but many points were deducted.<BR> I'm sure you'll get many comments when "Father Ron" and our other fellow DFer's <BR>return home from their vote counting in Florida.(I don't mean those votes for Gore).

  3. #3
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    Re: Documentation

    Bill ~~ Don't let "red t"'s cynacism set you back. There are many of us who have been in this judging game for as long and longer than he has who are much more positive in our attitude.<P>I will offer these few quick thoughts. If the color is something unusual for the car, then have and carry documentation. If an accessory is unusual, have documentation. Etc.<P>I'm sure Father Ron will have more to add on this subject. hvs

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    Senior Member novaman's Avatar
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    Re: Documentation

    If you have anything at all on your car that is not normally seen on a car like yours then you should have documentation with you showing that it is correct. Example: early VW bug with a flower vase? Odd, but correct. Factory sales brochure shows/lists it as an option. Judging manual says all hose clamps should be the same. 1963 Chevrolet Chevy II ONE clamp is different than the rest. Copy of factory assembly manual shows clamp and part number. If you think you have something that might be questioned, put the documentation near it if possible so the judge can see it. <P>What else Father Ron?
    novaman

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  5. #5
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    Re: Documentation

    Okay Howard,<BR> If you were judging the engine comp. of a 65 Pontiac with fac. air,and you found the main wiring harness was wrapped with a light grey wrapping,would you ask for documentation? Or automatically deduct points because AACA has always said the wrapping must be black. I'll wait on an honest reply.

  6. #6
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    Re: Documentation

    OK red, here is my honest reply. I would NOT be judging a '65 automobile because I have little interest in or knowledge of '60's cars. I have nothing against them and I feel they are just as much a part of our hobby as my pre WW II cars and as equally important to automotive history. But to be, as you say, honest; I just have no interest in them. <P>Having given my HONEST answer I will now tell you what I would do if I found myself assigned to a '60's class. I would first use the old Hank Krusen axiom, "If it looks right, it probably is." Then if it didn't look right, I would seek out the owner and ask him about it. If I am not sure it is incorrect, but he does not have written proof that it is, he gets the benefit of the doubt and I would accept his word that it is correct. He or some knowledgable representive SHOULD be with the car. If he is off judging it would be wise if he had left a note on the windshield as to where he was judging so he could be found. <P>Failing all of that, I would carefully examine that light gray tape. If it was duct tape I would assume it didn't come from the factory that way. If it was a gray tape of the same type as the commonly used factory black tape, I would assume it was probably authentic and correct. Absent any POSITIVE proof that it was WRONG, I would give the owner the benefit of the doubt and take NO DEDUCTION.<P>You might also take into consideration the quality of the restoration work done on that car. If it is slipshod in other areas, the tape might be wrong. If it appears to be of high quality and well researched then there is a better chance that that gray tape is correct. It probably took more effort to do it in gray than the more common black. He had to look for the gray while the black is readily available in most everybody's toolbox. How many people go to an extra effort to do it wrong? <P>USE COMMON SENSE WHEN JUDGING!!!<P>But that is just my opinion and my way of judging, but I could be wrong. Howard

  7. #7
    Senior Member ronbarn's Avatar
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    Re: Documentation

    Good question and some good response. During the meet in Florida last Saturday I was the Team Captain for the motorscooter class. I had three very experienced Cushman people on the team and they said that the color of one of the scooters was not only the wrong color but was metallic paint which was also wrong (this was a '58 Cushman). The owner had already asked if would tell him if there were any major deductions. Although there was no doubt, I asked the owner if he could document the color and his reply was, "No, because it is the wrong color." I then replied, "That is a major deduction." And he thanked me for the information.<P>Yes, there are many times that a deduction for non-authenticity can be made by competent judges and no documentation is requested. I agree with hvs, if there is doubt the owner should be asked for documentation. If there is certainty on the parts of the judges, then there may be no need to ask for documentation. Can this result in a deduction that could have been documented as correct? Yes it could, but this is not the norm - it is a more infrequent occurrence that some would like to believe.
    ronbarn

  8. #8
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    Re: Documentation

    With apologies to Father Ron in advance, I should like to add one word to the last sentence in his previous post.<P>"- it is a more infrequent occurrance that some would like to believe."<P>To read:<P>- it is a more infrquent occurrance that some<BR>would like YOU to believe.<P>There is far more strength, fairness and integrity to our judging system, than some would have you believe. ~~ hvs<BR>

  9. #9
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    Re: Documentation

    Concur with these excellent responses - emphasizing the common sense approach. I also like to look at the total package being presented, and if the quality of restorastion/research is there, I'll not question something like you mentioned, unless I know better. I'll add just one fine point to the discussion - it is the Team Captain who communicates with the owner, not the field judge. That of course means that the judge has had a discussion with the Team Captain about the potential discrepancy. But to go back to your question, if you are going to have documentation available please ensure it is factory stuff. I've often been presented with documentation that consists of a commercially produced photo-essay published in some news-stand mag. Unfortunately some people do use this type of literature as a guide during restoration of their vehicle. Terry
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    Re: Documentation

    So I didn't know my question would ruffle feathers...<BR>Let me see if I understand this correctly, I am restoring a 50 Buick Woody. I have no spotlites, foglites, Kleenex dispensers or anything else that wasn't on the car as it came from the factory. Therefore, if it is the correct color and the correct interior I shouldn't need documentation.<BR>But if I choose a "Different color" and / or a leather and carpet interior plus put a spotlight on it, I have to document that this is the spotlight, paint or interior that Buick offered in 1950.<BR>This is all assuming that the workmanship is of excellent quality.<BR>Am I understanding this correct ?<BR>Bill<BR>
    Bill

    Chief Financial Officer
    Buick Club of America

    1950 Buick Super Estate Wagon
    1947 4 Door Sedan
    1964 Riviera

  11. #11
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    Re: Documentation

    Bill, I think you are pretty much right on the money. Anything appearing out of the normal might best be documented. As an example, a tinted or shaded windshield in a vehicle with clear side and rear glass. It could possibly have come from the factory that way, but it might be questioned as normally it would be tinted all around. <P>I do KNOW that some cars could be ordered with ONLY the windshield tinted, but darned if I know for sure which ones. Having bought or looked at a lot of Buicks from 1948 to 1977 I seem to recall that option from some one of those years in Buick.<P>If you ruffled any feathers, they needed to be ruffled. Maybe we can improve our judging attitudes as the result of all <BR>this. Thanks Howard

  12. #12
    Senior Member novaman's Avatar
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    Re: Documentation

    You have the idea. No "extra" accessories, no point can be taken off. I just looked at the paint codes for a '50 Buick. Considering all the variations of greens and grays, it might not be a bad idea (just in case) to have paint chips that show the correct color. the black maroon and ivory, I wouldn't worry about. As far as the interior, spotlight, etc. If it is odd looking compared to most other '50 Buick models then you should be able to document it.<BR>I personally don't fell that you should have much of a problem as I know a fair number of judges that usally judge the late 40's thru early 50's cars (east coast shows)and they are fair about things.
    novaman

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  13. #13
    Senior Member ronbarn's Avatar
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    Re: Documentation

    Terry's comment about factory documentation is important to understand. There is one acceptable alternative. Recognizing that some unusual features such as mid-year factory changes, or sloppy manufacturing procedures are sometimes not documented, AACA has a procedure by which an owner can petition to accept a certain feature if the owner can provide other sufficient evidence to prove the case. The petition should be submitted to the VP Class Judging, with supporting documentation. There will be a review of the request and if approved a letter will be given to the owner which states that this feature has been authenticated and that letter may be shown to the judges if questioned. It will be accepted in lieu of factory documentation.<P>As an example, chrome plating started with almost all cars in 1928, except for Olds which had chrome as early as 1925. In 1927 C.M. Hall produced the headlights for the Model L Marmon in chrome while their cowl lamps and other brightwork was nickle. No Marmon factory documentation for this, but there is other supporting evidence, including inspection of original vehicles. This is the kind of exception that the letter from the VP Class Judging will support. <BR>
    ronbarn

  14. #14
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    Re: Documentation

    Howard,<BR> Thanks for your reply, I do think you were honest in your remarks. But you are not the "average" judge on the field. As for my cynicism, I believe everything I said in the earlier thread was correct. Father Ron verified my statement about the judges knowing more than the owners in his post on 11-20 when he said that competent judges didn't need to ask for documentations and he stated the certainty on the part of judges. Well, I'm sure the judges were certain for years when they deducted points because the fuel lines were painted engine color on the V-8 Buicks prior to 1958. Because this was not correct according to the AACA judging school,but after a couple of years of research and many dollars spent, I proved the institution wrong and there was no written documentation . On my Pontiac with the grey wiring harness it was a shabby old car,only a Grand National 2nd. But I'm sure the judges were competent when they deducted points without asking me and they were wrong ...again! Now can you understand my cynicism?<BR> AACA is made up of different groups of people , some are touring hobbiest , showing hobbiest,judging hobbiest, and others are vendors. It seems to me that the judges seem to forget that the car owners are the guests at any meet,they spend the money on restoration,the expense of bringing it to a meet and a registration fee to be able to park it on a field for the judges and the public to view ,free of charge. If the owners don't bring the cars,there's no show for the host club,or no hobby for the judges.

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    Super Moderator Steve Moskowitz's Avatar
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    Re: Documentation

    i should be working but just could not resist adding my 2 cents worth on this topic. my personal experience has been that the more documentation that an owner can have a while showing the car the better. based on my very first meet in '85 showing my '20 olds roadster i have found it advantageous to tell the team captain that i indeed had documentation with the car and if there was any question of authenticity to please give me the opportunity to make my case. in the schaumburg meet an oldtimer judge made an off-hand remark about the color of my car and the varnished wood wheels...i proved him wrong and he thanked me. thankfully i had the OPPORTUNITY to present my case! it was a lesson learned and i now always ask an owner for documentation when i judge if i am not sure of anything authentic. so my advice clearly is: the more documentation the better!
    Antique Automobile Club of America
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