SAFETY ISSUE FOR MANY GM V6 FRONT DRIVE VEHICLES!!!!!!!

[manikmekanik]

SEE ATTACHMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CORROSION TO BODY MOUNTING BOLTS AND FRAME VIBRATION CUSHIONS, or UNIBODY SUB-FRAME CAN CAUSE CATASTROPHIC FAILURE!!!!!!!!!

ALL V6 GM CARS/VANS HAVE SIMILAR BODY MOUNTING SYSTEMS, including, but not limited to:
Grand Prix, Grand Am, Monte Carlo, Lumina + APV, Silloette, Bonneville, LeSabre, Park Avenue, Riviera, REATTA + convertible, Olds 88+98, Achieva, ETC, Etc.

My daughter, (Notamekanik), was driving my 1988 Reatta, (Bambi-Killer), for a few weeks, while I was repairing her Pathgrinder. On her way home from her 1st teaching job, as a math/science intern, she noticed something strange in the steering. SECONDS LATER, While driving on a divided hyway, (US-12, between Sauk City & Madison, WI), at posted speed range, (55 mph), in left lane, she heard a loud percussion noise, then NO STEERING CAPABILITY! The steering wheel would "Spin like a top" ,from her description. She calmly slowed the car to a stop, while it naturally was bearing leftward. The car came to a stop just off the pavement, in the grass/gravel median strip. She immediately called me to describe the incident, and get advise. From her description alone, I surmised the DRIVETRAIN CARRIER had separated from the UNIBODY SUB-FRAME MEMBER. My 1st thought was the sub-frame had rusted-out. I thought our 1st Reatta, (Panikmekanik's favorite), was now junk. The local Police had it towed away from the major thouroughfare, to a local body shop lot, positioned so I could get it on a trailer later, for only $50.

Moments after her call, I recieved an expected guest at the farm, Reatta Drenalin, (Craig), from the west coast of British Columbia, Canada. We had a few minutes for formal introductions, (our 1st face to face meeting), when Craig offered to go with me to aid in retrieving Bambi-Killer, from 2-3 hours away. He said it would give US time to become better acquainted, I though he was a glutton for punishment, then realized he was a REAL FRIEND, much like myself. Real friend = an individual who will offer to help another, even a stranger, who is in need. "A FRIEND IN NEED, IS A FRIEND INDEED!"

So, we hooked-up my trailer, (barricaded by a recent rainfall swamp!), and "boon-docked" the 1986 4X4 K-truck + dual-axle trailer thru the swamp, from behind the barn, ate dinner, (courtesy of Panikmekanik), loaded her Pathgrinder onto it, and hit the road for a SEVEN-HOUR TOUR of beautiful Wisconsin Farm country - in the dark.

Upon arriving at Bambi-Killer's location, I discovered not only 1 or 2 mounting cushions/bolts had failed, but ALL 4 rearward body mounts had failed!! This left the rear of the drivetrain carrier hanging 1" from the pavement! The steering rack is mounted to the carrier, and had come loose from the steering column at the 2nd knuckle, and tore the dash seal tube to shreds, hence the "spinning" steering wheel. I was able to KICK the front tires to align the car with the ramps, and with Craig's help, (INVALUABLE), I was able to DRIVE, (not STEER!), Bambi-Killer onto the trailer, without incident.

....more later!!

SEE ATTACHMENT!!!!!!!!

[manikmekanik]

....MORE PIX!!

LEFT SIDE VIEW

[manikmekanik]

....MORE PIX!!

RIGHT SIDE VIEW

[manikmekanik]

....MORE PIX!!

FRONT VIEW

[manikmekanik]

....MORE PIX!!

UNDERHOOD VIEW, Notice the engine is "lowered"

[manikmekanik]

....MORE PIX!!

underhood view, the bent intake air tube shows the severity of engine "lowering"

[manikmekanik]

....MORE PIX!!

And, finally the photo of the separation of the steering rack from the 2nd knuckle, and the torn dash seal tube.

[manikmekanik]

And, of course, the look on Notamekanik's face during the incident!

[manikmekanik]

All kidding aside.

Praise the LORD!!!!!!

...for guiding my precious daughter, and Bambi-Killer, to a safe resting place, out of harm's way.

I generally drive down 2-lane country roads, at GREATER speeds, with NO median, where no amount of driving finesse could have saved me from a collision with an oak tree!

INSPECT YOUR GM V6 FRONT DRIVE VEHICLE NNNOOOWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IF YOU, OR YOUR WRENCH, SEE ANY CORROSION AT THESE BODY MOUNTING POINTS,

FIX IT NOW, DO NOT RISK DRIVING THE VEHICLE!!!!!!

The very next day, Nanomekanik's BF, (who runs a local shop, with his Dad), found similar deterioration on a customer's Beautiful #2 condition Pearl white 1996 Grand Prix, with quad leather buckets! Clean car, no external evidence of corrosion.
He immediately informed the customer the car should NOT BE DRIVEN until fixed.
His shop's estimate for replacement was $1200. The owner is having a local GM dealer shop tow it in to asses possibility of recall-billed repairs.

When we hear word from the owner, I will post the result GM determined.

See attached photo of Nota & Nano Mekanik.

[Vincent Vega]

Yikes!. Glad everyone is OK. I just had mine replaced last fall. I had the local garage do it. I had the parts from an earlier "I might need these" purchase. Thanks for the heads up.

[manikmekanik]

Thanx 4 the kind words, Vinnie!

I was about to call you for help, when Reatta Drenalin rolled-in from Canada!

He had just bought a 91 red/tan coupe from Loren Buick, in Flat-land, beautiful car. The next morning, (after hosting Craig for the night), we went out to fix his cruise, (broken vacuum tee at firewall), and went to breakfast at the "Red School house cafe. He was happy I fixed his cruise, before his 2500-miles trip back home. We had a great time together, even under the circumstances presented.

Where, and how much were the replacement parts you got for yours?

[Tammy]

Randy, I'm so glad your daughter wasn't hurt. If theres something to be said about Hwy 12 to Sauk City and Madison, is that the new road probably saved your daughter. Having driven that stretch of road for the last 25 years, I really appreciate the safty of the new road.

You were so close to Delaney's Surplus Sales...across from Badger Ordinance. Fun place to go..you never know what you'll find <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Where is she teaching?~Tammy

[Jim]

The car I am driving right now had that exact same problem and the picture could have been from my car. I bought a very well taken care of Reatta from a lady in Michigan who was backing out of her friend's driveway when the rear of the cradle dropped down. They used a floor jack to get the car to the side of the street. I backed my car dolly up to the car and with out the benefit of steering still was able to drive the car onto my dolly. I brought it home, replaced all the cushions and have been driving it for about 2 years now.
The bottom line is beware of buying northern cars driven in salt conditions.

[Shelby]

Cars are made of steel and rubber.

Steel rust and rubber rots.

[Vincent Vega]

I bought all 6 with bolts and spacers (NOS in the box) for 80.00. I didn't need them at the time. I figured I would some day. I tried to do it myself. No go. I did drill a hole as suggested at Lincolnshire (Tom I think). To gain access to the cage nuts on the two blind ones. Took my mechanic about two hours to get them all. He said it can be a real bear sometimes when thing break. I only have mapp gas. I couldn't heat things up enough to make a difference. The two fronts were fine, no rust.

[TommyH]

im very glad your daughter is OK, and thanks for the heads up, as when i get back i will look.

[padgett]

Now if you lived in central Florida it would look like this (att.)

[Machiner 55]

Fuzzy?

[padgett]

Hit the macro button but right after I took it got a battery warning. Just enough to download the one shot.

[Machiner 55]

That's how everything looked to me the last time I was in FL. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Don B.]

Thank what ever deities you believe in.
She is one lucky person.
Those mounts are not something that one normally looks at
or expects a multiple failure.
Thanks for warning all of us.

[63viking]

I told you guys about this a year ago. I changed all of mine, as they were rusty.
Jon..

[Greg Ross]

Randy,
Glad to hear your daughter managed to safely get stopped after this failure. I've written pretty extensively about the deterioration I found in these isolators over the past 5 or 6 years. Most recently commented to F-14 he was likely going to encounter problems with Sub-frame removal.
http://forums.aaca.org/showflat.php?Cat=...true#Post294065
and
http://forums.aaca.org/showflat.php?Cat=...true#Post149900
and
http://forums.aaca.org/showflat.php?Cat=...=true#Post62879
Piece I originally posted on failure must go back over 5 years since it doesn't come in several search attempts.
When doing my original engine replacement I found wasted bolts with pictures posted here. Also had a rear suspension sub-frame isolator bolt fail, basically the same configuration.
I suspect salt belt cars are most prone to this deterioration. Salt would certainly accelerate the destruction but I think there's more to it then just that. What your photos don't show (obviously) is the core of the isolator. They're stamped/ pressed sheet metal sleeves vulcanized right into the isolator. Once the rust starts the rubber hardens and rots around it. As evidenced by your failure the bolts pulled right through the isolator.
Visually the head of the bolt will probably look fine, the large washer above it covering the Isolator core will obviously be very wasted/ corroded. That's what needs looking at initially. If it's ripe it can probably be assumed the isolator is ripe as well.
Problem probably originates with the sheet metal parts that have been partially embedded/ encapsulated in vulcanized rubber mouldings with no corrosion protection applied. A good primer would probably have made a huge difference, one that could handle the curing temperature!
Once salt/ moiture works its way into the assembly it just eats away in the gap between the bolt and the sleeve. (evidenced by the rot/ thinning on the shank of the bolts)
I saturated mine with rust inhibitor when I put it all back together with new isolators and galvanized/ plated bolts a few years ago.
Every northern car needs looking at now as a preventative measure.

[Vincent Vega]

Good stuff, Greg. You can really see what you are talking about in his first pic. The forward bolt has been separated from the insulator for some time. As the consistent rust color indicates. The rear bolt is the one that recently separated/gave out. The color of the bolt about halfway down shows it was not exposed to the elements for long. The forward(rear) bolts are usually the ones that go first. It is interesting to note this configuration is used by the General in many cars. I have 2 other cars from the same era that don't appear to have the same problem the Reatts'a do. There have been many threads that cover this topic. This is the first one that I can recall where catastrophic failure occured while driving.

[Greg Ross]

VV,
You need to look closely again at the photos of the bolts. As I recall these bolts are about 7/16"/ 11mm approximately. Look at the size of the hex head compared to the apparent diameter of the shank of the bolt. What you're seeing that's much greater in diameter then the original bolt is the remains of the guts of the Isolator. The inner sleeve of the Isolator has completely bonded/ corroded onto the bolt shank. The failure I believe is the isolator rotting around the sleeve promoted by the corrosion process. The bolt and the remains of the sleeve just pulled right out through the isolator.
For those who have never had one of these disassembled, picture a rubber donut with a metalic center sleeve. The function is to isolate vibrations/ noise from being transmitted from the Sub-frame to the Unibody of the car. And it it works.
I'll repeat, I believe it's the lack of any corrosion protection on these metalic parts. The corrrosion starts and results in total and now catastrophic failure of the isolator.
How about a Class Action. The Fleet of 18000 at an average of $1500 for repair and dimimished value, nice tidy $27 Million plus punitives for Randys' Families' shock and horror as well evidenced in those remarkable photos!
Count me in! (I'm kidding, I'm kidding!
I am serious though, every vehicle that has spent any time in service in the Salt Belt needs to be looked at, carefully. It was only by luck Randys' Daughter had the opportunity to get the vehicle stopped without incident. Randys' description of the steering column failure will happen now every time.
Would be very interested in how the fellow with the '96 Gran Prix makes out with GM, this is definitely "latent defect" Could also result in the condemming of a whole generation of GM cars. And it's not like GM has the financial resources these days to assume responsibility for repairing all these vehicles.
And this question needs to be added now to the Standard Reatta Sales Questionaire, "when were all the Sub-frame Isolators replaced, front and back"