Re: R-12 vs. R-134a and other refrigerants

**padgett** · July 6th, 2001

Good discussion. The refrigerant that is supposed to be a drop-in replacement for R-12 is R-406A and has been around for some time which should say something.That say, my wife's '90 Bonneville was converted to R-134A last year by the shop that does most of my work. It cost right on $500 with the leak repair and recharging everything including labels and connectors.I live in central Florida and it will freeze you out without even being on max - no different from my R-12 cars.Will mention that when I got it back it did not seem as cold as I expected but the problem was not the R-134 but rather a overflowing glovebox had jammed the lever controlling the hot/cold air box. Once that was freed it began freezing people out even when set below MAX.Might note that the Bonnies automatic temperature conrol and the Reatta's use almost exactly the same mechanical components so for an a/c which checks out properly but fails to cool might just be a stuck diverter. This "Air Mix Valve" and its "programmer" (stepper motor) are desribed in a/c diagnosic chart 6 in the FSM (1C-28 in '88).Finally, thanks to the ATC, the only way to get max a/c is to set the temperature to 60 degrees. This changes the system from "fresh air" to "recirculation". Mine is cooling nicely set on "low fan" "67F" and "bilevel" on a 93 degree day in central Florida. Do wish there was a "medium" fan setting as "AUTO" instantly commands HIGH and I have found that most systems do not cool as well on HIGH. (Have five fan speed settings on Bonnie, generally have on 1 or 2 with 5 being HIGH.TranSport (dual air) acts just the same so suspect is endemic. Bottom line, am not concerned about R-12 supply for the moment but still am changing the Fiero (needs compressor) over to R-134A since it worked so well on the Bonnie.

**Reatta Man** · July 6th, 2001

Padgett, Your situation is a perfect example of what I've heard before. After a retrofit, ANY problem with cooling is quickly blamed on the 'inferior' R-134a, rather than investigating further whether the system is set up properly. It sounds as if you found an excellent shop that knew how to fine-tune your system to work at its best. Unfortunately, there is no book or chart to tweak a particular car for 134a that originally came with 12. The best anyone can do is 'guess' how much to put in a '90 Bonneville, or Fiero, or Taurus or Camry. Glad to hear your system is working well. Joe

**Reatta Man** · July 7th, 2001

Fellow Reatta owners:There's some things you need to know about converting from R-12 to R-134a before making a decision. Factors such as your system's condition, what repairs are needed to fix leaks and what part of the country you live in play a BIG part. I've repaired lots of R-12 systems, but I've never done the R-134a conversion. But I've listened to lots of techs and owners talk about the lessons they have learned the hard way. First, there is NO SUCH THING as a simple drop-in refrigerant for R-12. Even if a manufacturer claims it is a drop-in, that is not the whole truth and in some cases it is absolutely misleading. Often, the system will need to be flushed and a new oil used in the system. Also, if your hoses are more than five years old, they should be changed to hoses meeting the newer SAE standards. The R-134a molecule is much smaller than 12, so hoses that don't leak R-12 may leak severly when 134a is used. Next, please remember that the EPA regulates refrigerant usage, like it or not (I don't). They set the rules, and if you break the rules, the fines can be harsh. So far, Sears and Sprint have already been given huge fines by the EPA for violating this policy. The EPA requires every refrigerant to have a unique set of connectors and recycling systems to handle capture of ANY and EVERY refrigerant used today. What that means is this: if you use anything other than R-12 in a Reatta (all were built to use R-12) the connections MUST be changed in such a way that R-12 recovery machines and gauges can no longer be used on the system. If you have your system converted, for example, to FR-12. Freeze-12, Autofrost, Freeze Zone, CoolTop, or other so-called new "drop-in" refrigerants, your connectors will either be modified to only accept the new refrigerant, or the R-12 connectors will be taken off entirely. ANY shop not doing this is subject to a $10,000 fine. What does that mean to you? If you convert to some other refrigerant other than R-134a, you have to go back to a shop that handles that particular brand. This could cause you to only use one particular shop in some areas. However, EVERY shop that does A/C work can service a system with R-12 or 134a. As for R-12 being plentiful, yes and no. Last year, if you had an EPA 609 card, you could buy R-12 for about $17-18 for a 14 ounce can. That SAME can this year is at least $35-40, which means the shop will mark that 14 ounce can (NOT a pound, but 14 ounces) to about $50-60. Here's the ironic part: if your system has a leak and has lost ALL freon, guess how they find the leak? Yep, they have to put more freon in and look for the leak (all at YOUR expense, of course!) So, you could be $100-150 in the hole before your system's leaks are fixed and you decide if you are going to stay with R-12!There are other tricks and problems with R-134a that only a real A/C professional can deal with quickly and easily. For example, as a general rule, when converting from R-12 to 134a, you only put in about 80% as much 134a as you would 12. BUT, if your compressor high side pressure is too high or too low, that 80% rule may not work for your car. A pro can 'play' with the pressure, either up or down, to find out where your system works best. This is where your location can be critical. A system can be fine at 80% in New York, Vermont or New Hampshire, but the same readings on the same car in Miami or Houston will not produce enough cold air. No, I'm not an R-134a nut or believe that only R-12 should be used. In some cases, however, one makes more sense than the other. I just wanted all of you to know what you are facing before you are shocked when you take your car in for what used to be relatively inexpensive and easy A/C repairs. Finally, PLEASE, WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT THINK THAT ONE OF THOSE QUICK $20-30 KITS SOLD AT WAL-MART, AUTOZONE, ETC. IS ALL YOU NEED TO CONVERT YOUR CAR!!!!! Think of these kits as the worm hiding a hook--we all know what happens to the fish when he eats the tempting worm. One last thought: most shops are not making the killing some think they are on A/C repairs. While these repairs are expensive, so is the training, equipment, supplies and the ever-present presence of the government looking over your shoulder. If you don't think so, imagine repairing a 1980s to early 90's Suburban with R-12 and dual air, which can take about 5-7 pounds of R-12. Think you just won the lottery? Thirty days later your your customer comes back and you have to replace all of that freon under warranty because a tech missed someting, PLUS fix whatever the tech missed in the first place. You just ate your profit for the next 5-10 repair jobs, and you have to warranty those as well as the Suburban you just did for the second time--free! Please don't strangle the technician or the shop foreman when he tells you what the repair will cost. They're over a barrel too. Here's two sites where you can get more information than you ever wanted to know about automotive A/C repairs: <A HREF="http://www.aircondition.com" TARGET=_blank>www.aircondition.com</A> <A HREF="http://www.epa.gov" TARGET=_blank>www.epa.gov</A> Good luck!Joe

July 8th, 2001

[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] What can you do about it if you brought your car in for R-12 and they converted the system to R-134 without you knowing about it. I never gave them permission to do that. My system has not work right since that happen. They did not even label it until I brought it to the dealer and was told that someone converted it and call the shop where it was serviced.

**wally888** · July 8th, 2001

For some time I visited airconditioning.com forum trying to solve a problem w/ wife's caddy. Info there is very good and nice people. At that time most insisted conversion was a major task. Recently the 89 I was selling lost it's charge and the repair shop converted the system by simply recovering the R12, changing fittings and inserting R134. I questioned their procedure and was assured this was now standard practice. Still wondered? A few weeks later I took my wife'e caddy to Dealer and they did exactly the same , simple procedure,$100, saying no other tasks were necessary. It now works fine, fingers crossed. My current 89 was converted some time ago by previous owner. Don't know how extensive procedure was but it works O.K. It could be cooler, wish it was, and during a recent trip it did a strange thing? The effectiveness was somewhat marginal for an hour or so, then suddenly the flow of air got very or much, colder and stayed that way?

July 8th, 2001

I recently had my 90 converted to 134 and am happy with the results. I searched until I found a shop where one man does a/c almost all the time, i.e. cars, trucks, and fleet trucks. He probably knows how to tweak for best performance.

**padgett** · July 8th, 2001

Wish I could say it was the shop, but after $500 hose repair and conversion shop said "everything is fine" I had to do the troubleshooting to discover stuck "programmer" (diverter valve) after careful reading of the shop manual. Will say I got the idea after technician (on return) mentioned "setting the programmer".Since this blends the air from the a/c and heater, it can easily cause uncool air from the vents while the a/c is working properly.The only real way to tell is with a thermal probe on the a/c coils and to visually check the valve (just drop the lower dash cover on the Bonnie, haven't looked on the Reatta).Is nice they way the Reatta has two "personal" settings, I just keep #1 set for normal operation (car is usually under cover somewhere - Floridians know to always seek shade) and #2 on MAX COOL for when I have to park in the sun. This is also where the sunroof is nice: leave it just raised at the back, crack the windows, apply sunshade to windshield (windows are already deep tinted) and the inside stays *much* cooler.

**Reatta Man** · July 8th, 2001

Annaj1,I saw in the bottom of your message that you are in California. Unless the CARB (California Air Resources Board) has recently forced some sort of change to require all cars with A/C systems needing repair to be converted to 134a by the shop doing the work, I'd say you have an excellent case. They MAY have broken several local, state and federal laws. Before calling an attorney, I would STRONGLY suggest reading your work order, to ensure you didn't unwittingly approve a conversion. Also, look for fine-print junk that may be printed on the back and reads more like the lawyer-ese for the AOL-Time Warner merger. If any of that junk implies the shop could do that conversion, you may be stuck. If you unknowingly approved the conversion to 134a, at least go back to the shop and demand they fix the system until it cools as it should. As best as I can remember, the outlet temperature should be between 42-48 degrees at 2000 RPM with the car not moving. If you are getting temperature readings in the mid to high 50s, it's not cooling enough. If you did NOT approve the conversion, WEEEELLLLL now, that is different!! Most state consumer law has gotten so strong that any repair has to be approved by the owner of the car. If they converted it without your approval, they may owe you a refund! Try working with the repair shop. If that doesn't work, explore your options, including taking them to small claims court, which you can do yourself, or getting a lawyer. If you go the court route, have several estimates from other shops for a complete repair to your system. Good luck!Joe

**Reatta Man** · July 9th, 2001

One more thing....VERY IMPORTANT!!Some of these wackos are advertising that you can "top off" your system with some of these so-called R-12 replacements. In other words, mix the new stuff with R-12. WRONG!!Under NO CONDITIONS, should you mix any two different types of freon!!!!!!!!! This is illegal and can cost you big money. This will contaminate your system, making recovery nearly (legally) impossible!! Most shops can test whatever gas is in your system to see if it is pure R-12, R-134a or some unknown gas, using a tester, or sniffer. If they can't identify the gas or think it is mixed or contaminated, then they can't legally mix it with the stuff in their recovery machine's tank. That means they will invite you to take your biz elsewhere!!!The other bad side of mixing the gasses is that some of the new 'drop-ins' don't mix with the oil in your system, and can clog your condensor, evaporator, accumulator or destroy your compressor. Can you say expensive????Please don't let someone mess up your system. If you don't know what you are doing, stick with a reputidable shop!!

July 10th, 2001

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Thanks guys - you are a bunch of guys with a wealth of great info. I took Bob's advise and brought it to Auto Service Center in SF, CA on Thursday to have them check it all out. Hope they could find the problems and I agree that the Shell in Lafayette, CA is in error to change my A/C from R-12 to R-134 without my permission. I had my receipts with me when I took it to Los Angeles - now I can't find it. Understand that they have to give me a copy upon request. My bills total around $500. I'll get my lawyer to write to him regarding this and copy all info you guys can give me. Say, visiting CA soon? Take you to lunch! Let you know how its going. Hopefully, it be good news. Thanks Joe, Padgett, and Bob! Another ? - When and If I could get my car fixed, would you recommend that I install a sunroof? Or am I asking for trouble? Annaj1

**sahein** · July 10th, 2001

According to my air conditioning supply book (Johnstone Supply) there are three replacement refrigerants for direct replacement of R12.1.) R409A (Formerly known as Fx-56)is an economical and reliable retrofit solution for low and medium temperature R12 applications.2.) Frigidare Hotshot R414B is a direct replacement for R12, R134A, and R500. Does not require oil change, mixing or component change. Compatable with mineral, alkybenzene, POE, and PAG oils. Broadest application range of all interm blends (-20 Deg F sat. gas to high temp A/C range). 96% less ozone depleteing, 86% less global warming than R12. 18% less global warming than R134A. Non toxic and non flammable.3.) R416A HCFC R12 interm blend Refrigerant. Closely matches thermodynamic and physical properties of R12. Compatable with mineral, alkybenzene, and polyolester oils. EPA SNAP approved. Lower glide (5 DEG F) and head pressure than other interm blend replacements. UL classified.

**Reatta Man** · July 10th, 2001

Sahein,That's GREAT information that may help a Reatta owner make a better decision. Thanks. Do you know of any database of dealers that handle each type of refrigerant? As I stated earlier, each refrigerant requires unique fittings and recovery equipment. It would be great if there is a listing of shops that can service cars with each type of refrigerant. Joe

**padgett** · July 10th, 2001

Thought R-406A was also a direct R-12 replacement but have heard rumours about it for years.

**Reatta Man** · July 10th, 2001

Padgett,R-406A is also known as Autofrost (www.autofrost.com), McCool, Chill-It, GHG-X7 and now is also sold under the Cool Top name. The inventor is a guy by the name of George H. Goble who is apparently both brilliant, and very eccentric. While he has made a small market for his "new" refrigerant, some of his comments seem to suggest that he thinks it is THE best thing on the market to replace R-12, bar none!! While I have never used R-406A, I know of one shop here in San Antonio that was promoting it under the Chill-It name and then dropped it. When I asked the owner, who I know personally, he seemed to be disappointed with R-406A. I didn't push the issue, but keep in mind that this could be due to poor technical support, or the Autofrost people suddenly deciding to gouge the price. Like it or not, this really is still a two-refrigerant world we live in when talking about automotive air conditioning--R-12 and R-134a. All the others still appear to be minor players that haven't caught on to any significant degree. I sure do miss the days when you could buy all the R-12 you wanted for 89 cents a can. If I knew then what I know now, my 401K would be sitting in my garage, filled with cans of 89-cent R-12 that I could then dole out at $35 a pop. That is a better return than Wal-Mart or Dell stock!!! Oh well, life goes on...Joe

July 10th, 2001

Years ago when I heard F12 was going to be discontinued, I purchased over a hundred of the 12 oz. and 14 oz. cans of the stuff for $1-2 a can. I have a professional gauge set and a vacuum pump and have done my own air conditioning freon additions for a buck or two. I never discharge freon, only add to a system every couple of years or so when the cooling gets poor. I don't worry about running out of F12. There are plenty of free old refrigerators around with lots of F12 in them. What's the problem?In another situation, I have $6000 of NOS Reatta parts stashed away. Perhaps the Reatta parts will take the same avenue in the future as F12 prices. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

**padgett** · July 10th, 2001

Russ: did you build your vaccuum pump out of a refrigerator compressor or an Olds Diesel vaccuum pump & electric motor ?

**padgett** · July 10th, 2001

Just found more than you ever wanted to know about R-406A (including the assetation that the reason it is not used in cars is because the automakers are not interested in having it certified). <A HREF="http://yarchive.net/ac/r406a.html" TARGET=_blank>http://yarchive.net/ac/r406a.html</A>

**sahein** · July 10th, 2001

<A HREF="http://www.johnstonesupply.com/main/selectstate.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://www.johnstonesupply.com/main/selectstate.asp</A> Joe; Above is the John Stone Supply searchable website. Certification may be required for refrigerant purchase.

July 27th, 2001

I was just told the refrigerant in most refriges is R22 not R12 and that using it would destroy a system. All the shops I've been to say they convert 99% of cars and have very few "not cool" problems. I have an appt to have a new compressor and conv. on monday. One shop said the condenser needs replacement the other didn't. A new belt seems a good idea though-mine has some cracks

July 27th, 2001

I bought My Reatta with a leaky condenser so I had to replace it and convert it to a different freon. I am licensed to buy r12 but too cheap to use it. My price for a 30# cylinder was 750.00. So I decided to convert it to 134a. I replaced the accumulator and the orifice tube at the same time. The hottest day We have had here has been 97 and I could not leave it on max cool all the way home as it got too cold for Me. Now I am not going to say that the interior temp does not rise a few degrees at idle because it does. But first off I dont stay at stop signs long and out of 4 cars I own, a Reatta, a Regal, a Grand Prix, and a lebaron convertible, all of them warm up. Even My Regal with R12. So it is possible to get one cold. I do evacuate for 1 hour before I charge and I added 3 ounces of the recommended oil to the system. By the way I have gotten 2 notices from Our parts suppliers stating that if We use an r12 replacement that has r22 in it, it will void the warranty as it suppossedly eats the front seals out. As far as using a freon with a flammable propellant in it I would say never! Bad stuff.

July 28th, 2001

Thanks for the encouraging words Skip. I'll post the results of my conversion etc.

**padgett** · July 28th, 2001

Skip: did you use a stock oriface tube or one of the new variable ones ?

July 28th, 2001

I used a stock orifice tube. I had heard of the variable ones but My suppliers were not carrying them yet. I think I would have given one a try if I had access when I did Mine. Keep in Mind that I drive 100 miles per day to go to work and roughly 85 of that is on the highway so I was actually not all that concerned about the idle temp. But I looked at the site that was posted here and I can see how they could work. Now whether or not they do,I cannot say. I think someone on this board said they used it and was happy with it so I would try it for what little they cost.

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display