It's summer & your Reattas value has taken a dive

[Bushwack]

So much to respond to but I don’t want to post a long reply. But as I don't agree with much of what has been written, I'll give you my thoughts.

If you buy a car with the intention of driving it into the ground, good for you. But you’d be foolish not to take into account its (resale) value. You may fall on hard times and need whatever equity is in this investment as cash. You may have a baby on the way and need to upgrade to a minivan. So many scenarios and IMO, if you don’t look at such a purchase with value in mind as part of a deciding factor, then you’ve done yourself a disservice.

As a collector car, the Reatta does have most of the necessary components to increase in value. A short run, even fewer verts made and a limited amount of cars made in various color combinations.; and of course how the car was assembled. I think Barney once mentioned he estimates 67% (approx. 14,000) are still on the road. Should that be, I guestimate 85% of those are rust buckets and/or abused to the point that they should be sitting in Marck’s backyard and be parted out Also, keep in mind of the 110 who participate in this forum regularly, we represent less then 1% of Reatta owners and we, for the most part, have a different ownership mentality then most of the rest.

The argument of too many available doesn’t work (ref: Corvette). The problem is (and I’ve said this time and time again), Reatta owners don’t have a collective voice that speaks well of the car. Corvettes, Allantes, Corvairs, Mustangs, Rivieras – they all have a voice that promotes their brand. Steve feels in 25 yrs (2013-2015), values will increase significantly. Steve also takes medication (OK..just kidding). If the Reatta community is the same now as it will be next year, three years or ten years, Reatta values will either remain stagnant or continue to decrease. This cars value shouldn't DECREASE during spring and summer.

To sum up, why does it appear Reatta values are taking a dive? The car doesn't have an entity that promotes the benefits/desirability of owning a hand crafted luxury coupe or convertible.
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[DAVES89]

You say that 85% are rustbuckets/abused? I think you should take another "vacation". Come back when you have something more positive to say.
There are a great many cars out there, that while they may not be perfect enough for California standards, are great looking/running cars.
Many of us [and not just the ones on this forum] bought these cars as stylish daily drivers not for investments. We bought them cheap and they have proven to be timeless in style and very reliable drivers if taken care of properly. I'm 55 and didn't even know the Reatta existed until 6 years ago. By then my kids were grown and having a two seater made sense.
I challenge you to take your 'vert to a dealer and try trading it in on a minivan. I think you will be surprised at how little you are offered. And a year from now try trading it again and report back.
IMHO one of the easiest cars to buy is the Reatta. The hardest to sell? The Reatta.

[Bushwack]

Dave - you kinda confirmed what I've been saying. Thanks.

[Corvanti]

nice to know i'm perceived to be one of 85% of rust buckets due to my location (not so-cal, where i lived into my 30's) and mileage.

according to receipts found in the car, my reatta has been in NC for at least 11 years - most of that time in Durham. yeah they occasionally have to use road salt back here. i was pleasantly surprised to find very little surface rust on the underbody, and proceeded to properly prepare and paint with por-15 and rust encapsulator the whole underbody to protect from future corrosion. no other rust problems...

Marck, you might as well come down, spend a nice weekend at Carolina or Kure Beach and take my car back to add to your parts car inventory. oh, you won't need a trailer to haul it back - it's running great!

with only a trans fluid flush - i haven't got there yet - i'd have no problem to driving it to so-cal. do y'all need parts cars out there???

[Bushwack]

I stand by my guestimate. 85% of Reattas on the road are either rust-buckets (doesn't mean they are not reliable daily drivers) or they are abused (neglected). Spend a month monitoring Reattas for sale nationally on CL. Read these ads and come to your own conclusion.

But...don't want to get off topic as often threads do. Reattas don't have a voice to promote the brand. That's a very significant reason why they are over-looked either by people who desire reliable transportation or by hobbyists/collectors.

[Richard D]

Look at the pictures of the Reattae on this forum, do 85% look like rust buckets? Do 10% look like rust buckets? Of course being in Florida is an advantage but when I do see another driver on the road none have been rust buckets. The ones at the monthly Fuddruckers meet look great and most have over 100,000 miles on the odo. I think most folks who own Reattas go out of the way to fix minor problems before they become big ones. Like brake flushing, oil changes and a coat of wax or two. I enjoy driving my Reatta and if it were to get totaled I could replace it for a good price, unlike my 71 Skylark vert which is parked in a hanger 25 days out of a month. It would be much harder to replace.

[Corvanti]

no doubt that a good percentage of ALL Craigslist vehicles for sale, given a certain age and/or location have rust issues. i have bought some "flippers" that i "properly" repaired then sold for profit a few short years ago when i was "healthy"...

sorry, i don't know what your agenda is Mr."Bushwack", other than what i've read here on the forum. i applaud your gathering of reattae in LA, but since then - if each one of them went to a "show" that allowed post-25 year vehicles enter - where folks, for maybe the first time, see one - get educated of its uniqueness in a friendly, not snobby way - the demand will grow. i'm not saying that PR to media prior to events won't also help.

BTDT, when some state Studebaker Drivers Club (yes, DRIVERS) members refused to go to shows where there wasn't a "Best Studebaker" award to be won, i'd be the only one there. i educated all about the brand that wanted to listen. out of those, a few got involved in the hobby. i also won awards, if you're into that...

best i stop now...

[NCReatta]

Alright guys, really. Lets stop throwing darts at each other.

I will give my honest straight forward and fair opinion.

My first two Reattas (bought both at the same time) Were "Rust buckets" by a lot of people's definitions. One spent most of it's life in N. Dakota, and the other in Michigan. My '89, which I still have and drive daily, was flat out scary underneath. However, it's a nice car and the best running Reatta I have. I spent a good amount of time and money replacing just about everything underneath. Now it's a pretty nice car. Not a show car, but I like it.

If you have a Reatta, I will not degrade it. It's your car, and you love it! Why should you give two craps about what other people think about it anyways? I love my cars, and I know a lot of others would wonder why on earth I still try to keep my '89 running! I've been told on multiple occasions by multiple people that I'm simply "polishing a turd".

When I buy parts cars, I have a price limit. I will not buy a car for parts if it is over "X" about of money. Most of the cars I end up with are pretty beat around. Bad paint, faded interior, blown engines or transmissions, rusty, etc. However, sometimes I end up with some nicer cars that I end of on the fence about.

Case in point: I bought a '90 Driftwood coupe back in like February of this year. I bought it pretty much sight unseen (until I picked it up). It wasn't a pampered car by any means, but it was a rust free NC car, ran pretty good, and looked decent. I still can't quite bring myself to part it out, but I'm not sure if I want to spend the money it will take to fix it up nice.

I beg to differ on Ervin's assumption that 85% are beaters or rust buckets.
Yes, they're not all perfect, rust free, low milage cars, but there's this car, it's called a "driver". that's where my cars, many forum member's cars, and a lot of my customer's cars are places. Ask any one of my customers why they bought the car. 98% will say "because I liked the way it looked and drove."

They didn't buy it as an investment. Sure maybe that's an added plus, but it's not the reason they bought the car.

I have a customer in SC with a '90 Maui Blue/Grey. Sharp little car. It has 195k on it. within the past 6 months, the owner has put more than the car probably will ever be worth into it. He's had the entire interior redone, high $$ tint job, headlights overhauled, the ENTIRE stereo system done (CD player, speakers, refurbished OEM radio, and new antenna), sequential turn signals, and is preparing to have the car painted with a $1300 paint job and new painted pinstripes. He doesn't care that he could buy a nicer car for less. He loves HIS car.

I would estimate that about 25-30% of Reattas left are "potential parts cars". Heck, my '89 is one of those "potential parts cars". I have been watching Craigslist and other site's listings nationwide at least once a week for about 5 years. There are some nice cars, some definite parts cars (some over priced ones too!), and then there's the drivers. That is what a lot of theses cars are. Drivers. I'm sure it's nice to have a show car(s), but it's just not financially practical for a lot of folks.

While my cars aren't "show cars" as I said before, I still take them to car shows, and as Kerry said, I really enjoy educating people on them. Every car show I go to, people always mention the "place down the road aways where there's like 12 of them parked". That always tickles me.

So lets quit the degrading of everyone's cars. If you have a show car, good for you. Just don't pick on us folks who have drivers.

On the subject of value, Someone mentioned the uncertainty in the economy. That will kill things. But there's a lot of things that can contribute to the drop in market value. Supply and demand are two things you learn in economics 101. Demand is the bigger issue right now. There's plenty of Reattas for sale. I've received 20 emails in the past week with people wanting to sell their cars. supply is not a problem.

One thing hat drives demand up is education. If people don't know the car exists, why should they want one? Ervin did a great job in LA with the Reatta gathering (don't let your head get too big though, Ervin). Anyone who takes their Reatta to a car show is also doing wonders in the education department.

Another thing that drives up demand is what it takes to get replacement parts. 95% of the parts on the market are used. Some NOS, but VERY LITTLE reproduction. Headlight cranks were pretty much innovated because we HAD to do it. Visor clips were a good step in the right direction. But there are plenty more parts that could be reproduced easily, but people don't do it because they're scared.

Why are they scared you ask? Because reproducing a part is no cheap man's job. But when you invest money out of your own pocket to make theses parts, and nobody buys (despite them saying that they'd love some), it makes you a little wary of doing it again.


Anyways, just my 2 cents.

[KDirk]

Hoh boy. And here I thought my first post to this thread was the one that stirred things up. FWIW if I said something that rubbed someone the wrong way, it wasn't intentional. In the interest of civil debate, I'd like to have some insight on the following:

What is the definition of a rust bucket? A car that has superficial surface rust on the engine cradle, cradle mount hardware and suspension parts? One that is needing replacement of brake and fuel lines to remain safe to operate, but otherwise sound (excepting the aforementioned surface rust)? Or one that has holes rotted clean through the rear quarters at the pinch weld, and the fuel filler neck broken clean off?

Personally, I would consider the latter of the three above a "rust bucket". I don't think any reasonable person could argue that definition. Now, one that meets the first example in the previous paragraph is going to account for almost every car that has been operated outside non-coastal Florida or southern California. Parts of northern Cali do get snow sometimes, though I admit I don't know if they use salt on the roads in those areas.

In any case, to define a car with superficial surface rust on the cradle and suspension as a rust bucket is not only a leap that would get one into a Nike commercial, but is a disservice to the majority of Reatta owners who are probably driving just such a car. If such rust is managed (removed by wire brush or chemical converter and then painted to protect against recurrence) the car will remain in good sound condition for a very long time. By that measure, my 91 is a rust bucket, and I would dispute that assertion vehemently.

I have done all the work needed (thus far) to stave off the longer term risks of such light rust that appears at weld joints in the engine frame or where the factory black paint has scraped off due to contact with a speed bump. I have done cradle mounts with ALL new associated hardware and have done suspension, including new front springs. I have media blasted and painted the front steering knuckles and calipers and the list goes on and on, so I am confident that no part of my car will rust out causing compromised safety of the vehicle and it's occupants, or catastrophic structural failure. I check the underside of the car frequently enough to see if any new problems are developing.

Are all owners so diligent? I don't know. The really dedicated ones (and I think most regular and semi-regular posters here are) seem to be very well aware of what needs to be done to keep their cars road worthy and looking decent - if not great - and strive to meet that standard of ownership. Some are admittedly on a limited budget (I would consider myself to be in that category, incidentally) and do the best they can with what they have. They should not be discouraged from bettering their cars, even if at a more limited pace of progress, by being told their cars are sub-standard examples destined for the scrap yard as they will rust away faster than their owners can restore them.

Regarding Craigslist, it is a natural place to sell both parts cars and those that are just this side of going to scrap, as it has largely taken the role previously held by newspaper classifieds or local weekly "rags" like the thrifty nickel or tradin' times. These are the cars that are not quite ready to scrap if someone just needs a drivable beater for cheap. One would not expect to see these cars on Hemmings or even Ebay, and most likely not in the classifieds here. That said, I have seen some perfectly decent Reattae advertised on Craigslist (under 50,000 miles, good paint and in generally good condition). Perhaps they were put there by a seller who wanted to stay strictly local, or just didn't realize they might do better by going to a more upscale forum for selling cars. All that aside, Craigslist, taken in isolation from other sources, should not be considered indicative of the typical Reatta on the road as it harbors a disproportionate share of the marginal units that are for sale.

I know of at least 10 Reatta locally besides my own (St. Louis metro area) and I would say only 3 of those are in what I would grade as C or D (with D being the poorest condition still roadworthy - I consider non-drivable parts cars to be F). While I've not closely inspected each of them, that admittedly very small sample (by no means empirical data) is 30% of those I have seen with my own eyes. The rest are A or B condition cars, which is not too shabby IMO especially in a town with bad winters and routine use of road salt.

In closing, the thing I think we all need to do is promote these cars as much as possible. Car shows, cruise nights, taking time to talk about it to the random stranger who notices it and pays compliments. Awareness is probably the single biggest thing working against us now. Outside of other owners, almost the only people I meet who usually know what the Reatta is just by name are older mechanics who have worked on one at some point. I think I have talked to four people (who were not mechanics or fellow owners) since 2008 when I bought my first who knew exactly what car I was talking about sight unseen; and they were all over 50. So, it looks like a campaign to boost familiarity is in order.

With that, I think I've written far more than enough on the subject.

KDirk

[Bushwack]

Glad to see I can stir the pot in this forum without even an accusation or insinuation of a personal attack on a forum member. Unfortunately, those who should be contributing to the topic are not.

I started this thread to get feedback on the fact that Reatta values are either stagnant or in a dive (as I see it). Many of you took offense to that saying, basically, the value or re-sale value of your car is of no issue. And that's OK. If that's your position, it doesn't matter whether I agree with it or not.

The rust-bucket comment does NOT apply to 99% of forum participants (ya'll wouldn't be participants if you didn't care about your Reatta). But I do think it applies to a large majority of Reatta owners. BTW, I never took a position (implied or otherwise) that if it isn't a rust-free SoCal Reatta, its worthless. Please don't equate people who live in SoCal as snobby (or arrogant). That just isn't so. We know we're better then you and there's nothing else to say about that (just kidding!!).

Getting back on track, my position on 'value' is different. Every car I purchase must have an ROI I'm comfortable with. But when the value of a car is compromised due to complacency or incompetence,.... The Reatta should be on every hobbyists/collectors list. It has the right ingredients for its value to be much higher then the going rate (if the car even has a going rate). Its collectable DNA should be as favorable or more so then the Allante. Even in this crappy economy, Allante resale has remained the same the past 3 years. Fewer have sold but their selling price hasn't declined.

Corvanti said earlier..."

sorry, i don't know what your agenda is Mr."Bushwack", other than what i've read here on the forum. i applaud your gathering of reattae in LA, but since then - if each one of them went to a "show" that allowed post-25 year vehicles enter - where folks, for maybe the first time, see one - get educated of its uniqueness in a friendly, not snobby way - the demand will grow. i'm not saying that PR to media prior to events won't also help.

My agenda since this past January has been to increase the value of our cars. That's why I ran for the office of Director (defeated 131 to 17) and that's why, in part, I organized the Reatta Rally (at my expense - the RDiv did not want to sponsor the event). I was also able to bring national attention (some would say worldwide attention) to the Reatta (A Rare Buick Reatta Meeting in Los Angeles - Carscoop). I've done more for the Reatta brand during a six month period then the RDiv has done in years. And no, I don't want an 'atta boy', a pat on the back or a cookie. What I want is for the Reatta to be appreciated and recognized...promoted! Which in turn will properly determine the value of our cars. We need the Reatta Division officers to lead and do their part to promote the car. Why most everyone here, who cares for their car as if they are part of their family, is satisfied with the status quo puzzles me.
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[padgett]

I do not buy cars with consideration of disposal value. Could change when/if I retire, main reason I have kept the foundling. For me and as have said before they are transportation, stress relievers, and learning experiences. They let me try out ideas. Also the Reattae make a statement about who I am. They are not investments, once purchased that is a sunk cost.

Tyically I find a car/function I want, study up on everything about a candidate or candidates, then start looking for the best deal I can find. This year I needed a tow/multi person car & after studying many, the 2011-2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee looked (and has proven to be) the best choice. Turned out I could buy a new '12 for less TCO than an '11. Am now learning a lot about OBD-II. Maybe odd but resale was not one of my criteria.

[Booreatta]

Everybody here are making some good points, but being the old guy and still have a memory of the past, things are not complicated as this post. When I was a kid in high school I owned a Jag 150 and I can relate to Marck that I didnt know if I wanted to put a lot of money in it. Two things I can remember people telling me first, sooner or later all cars are $50.00 cars, so remove the price of scrap metal that statement is still pretty correct and number 2 if the car was not popular when it was built, then chances are it wont be popular when it is old. Sure there are exceptiions but generally the rule.
Bottom line it doesnt matter if your car is not the most popular, if you like it drive it, nobody on earth will like your car as much as you do. The Reatta is just that, it has a following and that is a step in the right direction. There are many many cars out there that most of us here have never heard much about, ie the Jones six or many other brands they were not popular and made more cars than Reatta made convertibles yet no body ever sees or hears of them, but they have a following and dont bring a great deal of money but they are loved by their owners like we love our cars. Its just this one life and maybe one more. Better live for the moment. Its only a car. When is the last time you saw a Moon Automobile, they made 10,271. I have seen one before but never at a car show.
Just some thoughts
Chuck Kerls
booreatta@cox.net

[padgett]

Funny thing, I had an XK-150s in college, $1500 car then with triple carbs, gold head, and o/d. 6.00x16 tires & an appetite for N-5 spark plugs. Easy to open the door and rap on the fuel pump with a wrench to get it clicking.

Will mention that if a car was TOL and too expensive then it is probably desirable now. Personally have always had a "decent MPG" criteria even back in the day for street cars and still do.

[Corvanti]

totally agree with Marck, Kevin and Mr. Kerls latest posts.

and i also agree with Bushwack that there is a need for "promotion". on some other thoughts we'll just have to "agree to disagree".

let's get back to giving and receiving help and information to fellow reatta owners here on the forum, and sharing knowledge of the marque wherever possible...

peace, love and Kumbaya to all... Kumbaya My Lord - YouTube

[juddev]

Will mention that if a car was TOL and too expensive then it is probably desirable now.

57 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham
I saw one once in an old garage but he wanted 3k and I had 500.

[padgett]

And dual quads. Really need to show next to a '57 60 special, the Brougham was a 3/4 size replica. Was one in a gas station near where I lived for years I wanted to buy but was never for sale. Had an unusual crack in the vent window so knew it years later when saw at the ACD show in Indiana for a lot more. Was also this Facel Vega...

[SeanR]

I don't think a Reatta necessarily has to be a visual rust bucket in order to be considered a throw away car when factoring overall value. When I was competing with another buyer at the dealer to buy my Reatta, the other prospective couple eventually backed off just because of the age of the car despite getting a clean bill of health from their mechanic's inspection.

After buying my Reatta, I've had to replace speakers, the 16way power seat trim piece, repair a rear defog line, replace harmonic balancer, and replace headlight bushings. Each time I found myself cursing at the work, I had to remind myself that if I had let this car go to that couple, the Reatta would have probably met a junkyard fate.

It takes an enthusiast to maintain them and let's face it, the general population has no desire or clue on maintenance. We have become a throw-away society and the resale values reflect that. You have to buy these specialty cars for your personal hobbies and nothing more, perhaps maybe for the occasional "that's a cool car" compliment. The market is just too saturated with auto brands that never existed 24 years ago.

Unfortunately, many general public Reatta owners on Craigslist have caught on to that urban legend of premium Reatta mentality and want to price it like a rare gem without putting in any restoration but expect at or above resale value for ROI (return on investment). Hence, look at majority of ads and you find many of them rolling junkyard cars and that's why many of us here find this topic so controversial and insulting.

[padgett]

That could apply to any car, not just Reattae. OTOH there are a number of challenges, mostly electrical, that do not exist in simpler/older cars.

[johnemac]

The same hand wringing is probably happening on the Subaru XT6 and the Isuzu Impulse forums- odd, unique cars with little following other than the people who love them. I say a car was built to be driven, cringe to the fact I drive my 90 Maui convert daily and the 89 red coupe is parked.

[Kalcoop]

WOW!!! Did somebody scream FIRE! I'm all in. These cars are in the infant stage... Enjoy the ride.

[KDirk]

Kalcoop-

That picture of your collection has left me feeling rather, uh, inadequate. It appears you have cornered the market for Reatta convertibles for the entire state of Connecticut!

I am impressed.

KDirk

[Kalcoop]

One Love...

[PontiacDude210]

Time for me to jump in and irritate you all to death! Really though, I live in MI and I haven't ever seen a Reatta besides the one I am almost through paying on. As far as the value of my 200k mile rust bucket, at $1k into the car and the ability to weld, paint, fit brake and fuel lines, swap motors and do my own exhaust, I think I have more than enough value accumulated just in how much fun it is to drive. I could turn a profit on it in a heartbeat just in my social circle. As far as parts cars on CL, we here in MI aren't that lucky. I've found 6, all in worse condition than my 1000 dollar "investment". My car could lose a motor and I could have it back on the road for 600 bucks. I have to reupholster, sand out the paint and reclear the whole car, change the tires, fix the exhaust, and replace the window motors. So what? I don't care what the resale value is relative to other Reattas. I'm planning on perhaps running custom stainless exhaust, fixing the body, and possibly swapping the motor to a Series II SC 3.8L. And if I wanted to sell it afterward? I could still turn a profit. That's not my goal though. My goal is to own a Reatta; a car which so few people in MI have. They are fun to drive, and rare, so I don't care how many miles it has.

[Ronnie]

PontiacDude210,
Welcome to the forum! I'm glad you are enjoying your car. It sounds like you are laying it on a little heavy about turning a profit with your $1000 investment. All the things you describe that you need to do to your car are labor intensive. If you fix all the problems as you imply you intend to do, you might find your profit margin a little thin if you put any value in the value of the hours of labor you are going to invest. I try not to think about how much labor I put into mine. As I said before, my return on investment is measured in miles of smiles not dollar signs. I hope you buy some of the parts you need at The Reatta Store. It will make us both smile.

[PontiacDude210]

I couldn't agree more. I didn't buy the car as an investment, I bought it to own a Reatta. If I wanted an investment I would take to motor swapping blown up 2.4L Grand Ams and Sunfires, one can turn some crazy profit doing that. I don't think turning a profit on my $1k investment would be so hard, considering I assign no monetary value to hours of my own manual labor. I'm 19, what should I expect? That my work is worth something more than the finished project?