Fender Welting Color

[jrmo]

O.K., so after my fifth national meet as a judge, I would like to resolve just one issue that has come up nearly every year in the 1946-49 classes at least (and possibly the 50-53s as well). To my knowledge, factory fender welting color has always, without exception, been black... But it seems that someone at every meet, sometimes car owners, sometimes other judges, insists that there were other colors available. (George, you know who you are Ha-ha) Does anyone out there in Buickland have any solid documentation that other colors were ever offered/available?... like part numbers, vehicle orders, etc. or, can we declare this myth "busted"?

Thanks, Jim

[mgibson]

This has been a question in my mind for a long time, too! All I see are black fender welts in late 40's---early 50's Buicks.
However, I have a 1952 Super 2-door Hardtop that my father bought new and the welt was body color. I recall seeing the car in the showroom before he bought it and have a picture of the car only a month or two later (August, 1952). The car was Sky Grey with a Black top. The welt was painted Sky Grey.

[RM41]

I am also confused by this welt issue, my 48' Super 56C (calvert blue) was at the show in Ames and had points deducted for body color welting. My decision to paint the welts was based on an 100% original car near me which I used during my restoration for referance; the welts are painted body color, in this case Royal Maroon. I have also seen pictures of very low mileage and reportedly original cars with body color welting. I have decided to pull the fenders this winter and replace the welts because I can not find any documentation to the contrary. And George was not entirely sure either.

Kevin Moore
BCA #42862
Central Ohio

[jscheib]

From the Judging Manual - Page 15, part d, Beading and Welting.

Points are to be deducted for improper type, placement, fit and/or wear.

There is no reference to color, correct or otherwise. So unless this can be fully documented, and there seems to be some suggestion that some cars may have had body color welting, it is one of those questions that continue. However, if done to match body color and not correct "to original", would this not fall in the "over restored" catagory, where points are not usually deducted?

John

[Thriller]

However, if done to match body color and not correct "to original", would this not fall in the "over restored" catagory, where points are not usually deducted?

What is the definition of over-restoration? That is one thing that has always bugged me. I can understand that "show chrome" is better than original. I understand that new paints and processes mean that most restored cars have better paint than original.

For instance, if original black under the hood is supposed to be semi-gloss, then how is gloss over-restored? It isn't just that the paint is better or done better than original, but it is not as original. How can we nitpick over shades of engine colour, but completely overlook some other things?

Now, it was discussed at the judging school this year that pulleys (at least some) were to be cad plated to be correct. Discussion ensued and black was deemed possibly acceptable, but engine green was not. So, if painting a part under the hood is incorrect, why should it be any different than painting something else that shouldn't be painted?

Sorry for getting off topic. Low mileage original cars with painted welting ought to be documentation enough in my mind that fender welting could be painted body colour. Similarly, Martel's photo from 1952, while not factory documentation, would be enough to convince me. The past 2 Nationals have had very nice original 1952s that I had the pleasure of being involved in judging in the Archival class, but I can honestly say that is a detail that I didn't look closely enough at / remember to be able to suggest it is one way or the other.

[jrmo]

Thanks, I appreciate the speedy responses and passion of your replies.
Martel, would you forward a picture of that '52?
It would not going to be a huge point deduction in any case, but certainly should not be something that sparks debate at every judged event. And if the Buick Club doesn't have an official answer, it also affects other events like AACA Concours and appraisal/valuation estimates, too.
John and Derek, I can't quite follow your logic... it is not an over-restoration question: paint on an item that was not painted from the factory is simply incorrect, whether or not it is specifically referred to in the judging manual - otherwise we'd be accepting painted hood ornaments. "Original" is also subject to many interpretations. Once a car is off the line and on a carrier, who knows what may have happened to it. It seems to me that the assembly line logistics of matching different colored welting to the correct body paint color would have been beyond the administrative capabilities of an assembly plant in 1949, and would have at least required separate part numbers to facilitate supply and replacement. No Buick parts book shows separate numbers for different colors.
So, back to my original request - does anyone have any official Buick documents that would prove the existence of colored welting?

Thanks again,
Jim

[Thriller]

Jim - sorry if I wasn't clear. I agree with you in that I would not call this over-restoration. Since they wouldn't appear to be different part numbers, it would come down to a question of manufacturing - if the cars had the rear fenders on when the body was painted, then the welting would be body colour. That should also imply that on an original car, removing the fender and welting would reveal an unpainted (or just primered) body. One thing we always need to keep in mind is that different assembly plants had different processes. So, for example, for some years, some plants had the underside of the hood painted black, while others used body colour.

My thing is painting an originally unpainted part is incorrect not over-restoration. Using that as a basis, why is painting a part with the wrong paint considered over-restoration rather than incorrect? How is it different to use high gloss black instead of semi-gloss compared to using body colour or engine colour under the hood? I guess I'm looking for the definition the BCA uses for over-restoration, how it has been applied (i.e. what is currently considered over-restoration), and how it would be decided in the future as new cases come up.

[First Born]

Sounds to me like it is "in the eye of the beholder" guys. Thought perhaps I could help. Checked my '50 mod 52. Car is green. Cowel is green. Underneath of hood is black. Underneath of trunk lid is green. But, alas, the welting is ALL GONE. The assembly plant is Kansas City.

Ben

[ewing]

I'm going by memory on my 38 that was quite original when I got it.
It was dark blue and the ratty fender rear welting was black.
I think there is a small area of original fender welting on the front fenders at the back area. low on the body. I am playing with the idea of re doing the body and a repaint, so i will make a point of checking what the old welting pieces look like. Don't get too excited... I don't think I'll get to this before next summer.
But I will report!

[BJM]

O.K., so after my fifth national meet as a judge, I would like to resolve just one issue that has come up nearly every year in the 1946-49 classes at least (and possibly the 50-53s as well). To my knowledge, factory fender welting color has always, without exception, been black... But it seems that someone at every meet, sometimes car owners, sometimes other judges, insists that there were other colors available. (George, you know who you are Ha-ha) Does anyone out there in Buickland have any solid documentation that other colors were ever offered/available?... like part numbers, vehicle orders, etc. or, can we declare this myth "busted"?

Thanks, Jim

Jim,
I was there in the Judges training in Ames and specifically asked Pete Phillips that question and the answer was natural rubber or black. Did anyone get to check the original early 50's car that John Hemingway brought? I believe it was a 53 so not sure when the seperate fenders stopped. But if that had seperate fenders, that would be your answer.

[BJM]

From the Judging Manual - Page 15, part d, Beading and Welting.

Points are to be deducted for improper type, placement, fit and/or wear.

There is no reference to color, correct or otherwise. So unless this can be fully documented, and there seems to be some suggestion that some cars may have had body color welting, it is one of those questions that continue. However, if done to match body color and not correct "to original", would this not fall in the "over restored" catagory, where points are not usually deducted?

John

John,
By body color welting do you mean they would have sprayed the body with fender on and therefore the paint would be topped on the black rubber?

And just to make sure I understand, we are talking about the seperation between rear body quarter and the detached rear fenders, right? The thin bead that seperates?

As paint would have poor adhesion I can not believe they would allow this to leave the factory and then within at least a year some of the paint would have scrubbed off.

[BJM]

I am also confused by this welt issue, my 48' Super 56C (calvert blue) was at the show in Ames and had points deducted for body color welting. My decision to paint the welts was based on an 100% original car near me which I used during my restoration for referance; the welts are painted body color, in this case Royal Maroon. I have also seen pictures of very low mileage and reportedly original cars with body color welting. I have decided to pull the fenders this winter and replace the welts because I can not find any documentation to the contrary. And George was not entirely sure either.

Kevin Moore
BCA #42862
Central Ohio

Thank you Kevin. I wish the national judge would come on (Alan Oldfield) and Pete and chime in. Maybe - just maybe - some of the cars we see restored with black were based off originals being black when they were restored BUT the black being the result of weathering.

[Thriller]

Hemingway's '53 (if I remember correctly) was judged as archival...again, a small detail that I didn't pay attention to.

[papaw]

My 1940 Buick has the original factory paint and has never had a repaint. The welting is black and no paint on the welting. The problem is the car is black and if there was paint it could have came off over the years, but I see no signs anywhere of paint on the welting. The paint on the metal is down to primer in spots so if they were painted new it could all be gone.

[jscheib]

To try to answer Jakes question, there is some company that can match your paint and somehow "imbed" this color in the fabric, perhaps much like fabric can be dyed. Or else they do it with a paint that does not chip. I have a sample but I am not sure where the stuff came from. I will try to track it down.

John

[buick5563]

Where is the MeatHead judge on this one?





Just wanted to let Pete know I DO pay attention to peoples signature.

[1953mack]

I thought John Hemingway's Buick was a 1953 SPECIAL. Only SUPERS AND ROADMASTERS for 1953 had bolted-on rear quarters (fenders).

Al Mack
"500 MILES WEST OF FLINT"

[BJM]

I thought John Hemingway's Buick was a 1953 SPECIAL. Only SUPERS AND ROADMASTERS for 1953 had bolted-on rear quarters (fenders).

Al Mack
"500 MILES WEST OF FLINT"

Al
You could very well be correct. I am no 53 Buick expert and do not really know the years that Buick transitioned to non bolt on rear fenders. I know 54 was a single body shell.

[mgibson]

In the May, 1952 issue of BUICK Magazine, photographs of light colored cars show no evidence of black welt cords. I scanned two pages but have been unable to upload them. Attached is a scan of an original Kodak photograph of my 1952 Super taken in January, 1955. Pictures with the car is my father and younger brother. My father purchased the car new in June or July, 1952. Look closely at the horizontal joint just behind the door. There is no black welt!
Also, it is important to remember that welt cords of that era were not solid rubber or plastic that we see today. I recall my 52 Super having a fabric type welt much like furniture upholstery used. There was a center cord that was wrapped in fabric and was painted body color. I'm sure it was treated to make it weatherproof, but it was not solid rubber.