[Bill Stoneberg]

Food vs Fuel

[pphil]

all the stations in nashville (or i tennessee) have 10% fuel
and my truck gets 22 mpg in town 26-7 on the road .......
but on a road trip a while back i got 100% gasoline and my truck got
31 mpg thats 4-5 more per gallon (20 gallon tank) thats + 80-100 miles per tank.....
so how does 10% save money in my opinion it dont ........
just my thoughts on the subject......
scott

[Dave@Moon]

so how does 10% save money...

By reducing the number of people who need ventilators to stray alive, among many other air quality issues (semi-informed opinions about to be shouted not withstanding). It's all about reducing unburned hydrocarbons in exhaust gases, with the oyxgen content of the ethanol aiding greatly in reducing emissions. The use of American resources (grain) as fuel instead of buying it from the Middle East is (at best) a minor side benefit, with the unfortunate side effect of increasing the price of food.

However, even that will change when feedstocks to ethanol production are commercially developed that do not use foodstocks, but faster growing cellulose sources. What is in place today is not the final solution on any count, either in terms of ethanol or gasoline. As the latter becomes increasingly rare and valuable the development of the former is going to be more and more vital. At that point the heat (fuel) content of the ethanol will become it's raison d'etre.

Most of us will live to see the day when gasoline is no longer the dominant fuel used for transportation, that much is scientific certainty (again with semi-informed opinions about to be shouted, likely in simplistic slogans, not withstanding). What we are witnessing is the last gasp of that age, with remaining petroleum feedstocks stretched and preserved by any means necessary. Be glad of that, becuase it's keeping your car on the road that much longer.

[Bob Call]

Willie

I live in Tulsa and my son lives in Houston. In Tulsa some Conoco-Phillips stations advertise 100% gasoline and a least one Valero station near my house has 100% gasoline. While visiting my son last week I noticed a couple of Valero stations in Houston suburbs advertising 100% gasoline. I think the avalability has to do with the EPA clean air requirement for different metro areas. Like 100% may not be available in Houston but is in Sugar Land next door. 100% gasoline may not be available in San Antonio but may be available in Seguin. The CITGO branded station may buy 100% gasoline form the wholesale distributor and the Shell or Chevron branded station down the street may opt to buy E10 from the same wholesaler.

Back in the 70's all we heard from the envormental wackos and the government was we had to get rid of nitrogen based tailpipe emmissions. Has anyone else but me noticed the recent Shell TV advertisment touting the wounderful nitrogen additive in their gasoline? What happent to the nitrogen emmission reduction requirements? The government got E10 so nitrogen emmisisons is no longer a whipping boy to get their way.

Not directly on this subject, but, recently on a PBS documentary they surprisingly (Surprislingly to me as it seems to be counter to the greenhouse gas hysteria) showed a study of plants where the soil concentration of the "horrible polluant" nitrogen was was doubled and the atomspheric concentration of that "horrible greenhouse gas" CO2 was doubled. To the amazement of the conductors of the experiment the growth rate and size of the plants doubled. Conclusion, if you increase the amout of fertilzer (nitrogen) and the gas necessary for photosenises (CO2) the plants will grow faster and bigger. DUH! ("horrible" added by this poster)

Folks, google astomphere and check the the make up of our atomsphere. It's approximately 20% oxygen, 70%+ nitrogen and LESS THAN 1/2 of 1% carbon dioxide (CO2). OMG, the Sun may actually have an influence on our climate and not humans.

[Dave@Moon]

....showed a study of plants where the soil concentration of the "horrible polluant" nitrogen was was doubled ....

Folks, google astomphere and check the the make up of our atomsphere. It's approximately...70%+ nitrogen....

Although I didn't see this particular documentary you're probably referring to methane, not nitrogen. Methane is the other major greenhouse gas which is causing climate change.

Although eventually using ethanol BTUs as a replacement for petroleum BTUs in fuel will be a great aid in reducing contributions to climate change, it's use now is mainly for reducing unburned hydrocarbons.

As for the causes of climate change, I'd advise listening to 99.998% of the PhDs studying the subject at every major university on earth, and not internet speculation. But that's just me.

[HurstGN]

Originally Posted by Dave@Moon

Although I didn't see this particular documentary you're probably referring to methane, not nitrogen. Methane is the other major greenhouse gas which is causing climate change.

2 words..... Cow Farts!

[Dave@Moon]

Originally Posted by HurstGN

2 words..... Cow Farts!

Two more words..... And Yours!

[old-tank]

Originally Posted by Dave@Moon

Although I didn't see this particular documentary you're probably referring to methane, not nitrogen. Methane is the other major greenhouse gas which is causing climate change.

Most probably referring to NOx .
I too have wondered how adding nitrogen to fuel could do any good or not do harm.

This thread was started to inform of the unlikely fact that 2nd or 3rd tier gasoline was the most useful in my nailheads. Ol' Moon is probably right: every year we are closer to the time we will no longer be able to drive these magnificent machines across country. Don't wait...
Willie

[Dave@Moon]

Most probably referring to NOx .
I too have wondered how adding nitrogen to fuel could do any good or not do harm.

Doubtful. NOx is a precursor to nitrous and nitric acid, which are well known fertilizers in dilute form. Also NOx is in no way related to climate change, as it is found in very minor concentrations relative to non-reactive gasses like methane and CO2 before falling as acid rain.

Also NOx in exhaust gasses are almost exclusively from N2 gas in the combustion chamber subjected to heat and pressure. The "nitrogen enriched" gasolines Shell is touting right now most likely use an amide modification of a fatty acid for a detergent agent. Although that additive likely does no good for NOx emissions, it's contributions are likely minimal. However the hard facts to state this for sure are closely guarded trade secrets right now.

http://www.examiner.com/x-4824-Tampa-Sports-Car-Examiner~y2009m3d22-Nitrogen-Enriched-Gasoline