1968 Riviera Front Wheel Drive??

[BJM]

I wonder if anyone has tried a Toronado/Eldorado type conversion to the 66-70 Riviera? The special transmission ought to bolt right up to a 430 Buick engine. The other main clearance issue would be the oil pan, but thta can be modified. (I owned and restored a 66 Toronado and even Olds had to modify the oil pan for clearance)

I've always wanted to build an all wheel drive Toronado/Eldorado/Riviera but that gets into engineering over my head. It's been several years since I did my Toronado so I totally forget if the front suspension is in any way compatible with a Riviera (in terms of geometry and placement) but I remember that these cars were all designed and built on the same platform.

[NTX5467]

I believe you'll find that the Toronados and later FWD Eldorados/Toronados had torsion bar front suspension rather than coil springs. This would be a KEY item in getting suspension items "out of the way" of the half-shafts. Shock absorbers are easy to relocate to the outer area of the lower control arms, but with the coil springs in the thick of things, they would be an issue.

Now, it might be that (if the wheelbases are similar or exactly the same), all of the hookups for the rear torsion bar mounting (i.e., crossmember) are in the existing Riv chassis. I don't know about that, but it would be a key issue with getting the front suspension changed to torsion bars from coil springs. With the coil springs out of the way, the lower control arms could be changed to not need them, but they might attach in the same plane and width as the Riv control arms. Having both cars in the same shop at the same time, on lifts, side by side, would be the only way to really see what all would need to be changed on the Riv to accomodate the Toro's fwd-related items.

Also, be aware that this was back when each GM division had little parts-sharing going on (other than, generally, in body stampings that were hidden from plain, open sight. That means that EACH division had their own suspension designs and parts (including shock absorbers, mounting and attachment issues rather than particularly calibration issues).

In the higher carlines, parts sharing between the divisions (other than transmissions and some rear axles), the vehicles were in a higher price point so, with "more money to spend on each car", they could enjoy the luxury of division-specific parts and such. Yet in the midsize cars, there could possibly need to be more chassis "sameness" between the divisions, due to lower price points, highly similar wheelbases, and greater production "economies of scale" issues.

In the later 1960s, that was when the sanctity (if you might call it that) of each brand in GM was still intact. Each GM division seemed to take pride in what they did individually (when they could STILL do that!) rather than as a coroporate group entity. Sure, there were some cross-divisional input on some platforms (which were shared between several brands/division--when Fisher Body was still around to be involved in those issues), but when you saw a Buick (Olds or Pontiac or Chevy or Cadillac would have been similar), you knew it was Buick-engineered and designed by Buick people (although there might have been some influence from Fisher Body or high-level corporate operatives) to be a BUICK for BUICK customers.

The other issue to do an AWD vehicle on that chassis would be the center "hump" in the floorpan, much less the transmission "hump". One thing that Olds advertised was a "flat floor" rather than one with a big hump in the middle. At that time, there was still enough room on the underside of the floorpan to snake the exhaust system and other lines around under there, rather than as in current fwd designs where the center hump is reserved for the exhaust and other similar lines "to the back". So, having driveshaft clearance in the existing floorpan might be a big "mod" to undertake for a Toro. I'm not sure how the Leno Toronado handled these things, but I suspect it was re-chassied (as was the Roadmaster) to accomplish the rwd conversion--just a hunch as I have not investigated just what took place to make that Toro "work".

Just some thoughts . . .
NTX5467

[wildcatsrule]

Why would you even want to do that? The ride of a large car is best served by rear wheel drive in my opinion. I owned a front wheel drive '76 Eldorado and the ride was terrible- the size of the car coupled with front wheel drive made for a jarring ride-it squeaked, shook and rattled terribly-even after a complete suspension rebuild. The front wheel drive ride and handling wasn't anywhere near as smooth and nice as you'll experience with rear wheel drive (in a large car anyway). Not to mention that this was an early version of front wheel drive at GM, so the CV boots constantly were coming loose and having to be replaced. I say keep your Riv rear wheel drive!

[my3buicks]

boy, I spent a lot of time in a new 76 Eldorado Biarritz and the one we had certainly rode and drove well.

[BJM]

Well the thought to do this comes out of the fact that I am going to modify the 68 Riviera mechanically (not visually) and the dynamics of FWD would create a different ride. I live in Iowa and RWD can get hairy, even with a posi. And I do plan to drive this car year round.

I forgot about the torsion bars. Yes, that would more or less snuff the idea. I believe the 66-70 Rivieras carried over the same frame design from the 63-65's, they did not use the architecture of the 66-70 FWD cars.

My 66 Toronado rode decent. Long wheel base.

[Straight eight]

I recall that when the GM Proving Ground in Milford, Michigan was celebrating its 75 anniversary, they displayed and demonstrated an all wheel steering vehicle. It was driven accross the area called "Black Lake" on an angle, "doggy style", and then while in front of the crowd turned in a circle without going any direction but in the circle. Really fantastic for its time. Perhaps someone who worked on this can add some insite that might be applicable to what you are trying to do.

[NTX5467]

With all due respect, I concur with Keith on the ride/drive comments. A friend at work had a '71 Eldo that he bought used (in the 1980s). It rode as a Cadillac should . . . smooth, on the verge of being a little too soft on the Interstate, but some good hd shocks probably would have cured that. No unusual squeeks or whatever.

Now, what I have observed (back then) on many mid-'70s Cadillacs is that some seemed to be "looser" than others in the body assembly area. I'd see some that we got in on trade, about 3-4 years old, and when you closed the door a little hard, the seat back shook (I suspect you might also see the quarter panel deflect some on the two doors, on the front edge, when the door closed too). Yet others (usually garage-kept and owned by "typical Cadillac owners" of that era) were just as tight and quiet as could be.

I used to say that people bought a Cadillac (or Corvette) and treated it like a Chevrolet (i.e., buying it for what it made the owner look like rather than buying it for the attributes of the vehicle . . . and understanding how to use them in an optimum manner). You could also say the same for Porsches and VWs, by observation.

In general, GM's build quality was not as consistent and "tight" as it could have been back then -- by observation and comparison to other USA makes of that era. Yet, all it generally took was some "wrench and socket time" to address most of the rattle and squeek issues--even on UniBody Chrysler products. No amount of suspension work will cure those body assembly issues. Ride "roughness" can also come through as squeeks and rattles too, from my own experiences--if you don't hear something, it's good, but if you DO hear something, it's not good. It might also have been that some body mount issues were at play, too?

Generally, the front half-shafts and related joints were a known issue back then and one of the idiosyncracies of the breed. Many people "forgot" about them, by observation, but in our part of the world, they were quite trouble-free, but like timing chains back then, more of a high-mileage repair (near the 80K+ mile range). As with modern fwd boots, there are many of varying quality, design, and durability.

These are my own observations regarding the early fwd GM vehicles from being in the service areas of things and also from first-hand experiences with the Eldo my work associate had for several years.

NTX5467

[Philippe Racicot]

I have driven many full size RWD Buicks in winter and all of them were excellent in snowy/icy conditions, even those with an open rear end. The important thing is to get a set of decent winter tires for it.

The only reason why I drive a FWD in winter car now is to avoid exposing my older Buicks to the salt.

I also think that Jay Leno did the right thing when he converted his Toronado to RWD! So did Buick when they decided to stay with the RWD for the second generation Riv.

[imported_55PackardGuy]

Quote:

Well the thought to do this comes out of the fact that I am going to modify the 68 Riviera mechanically (not visually) and the dynamics of FWD would create a different ride...
I forgot about the torsion bars. Yes, that would more or less snuff the idea.

Well, 3Jakes, if "a different ride" is what you seek, and you have the '68 Riv, the shortest route to your Torviera or Rivonado would seem to me to be... put the sheet metal from the Riv onto a Toronado chassis. Re-power with the Buick 430 (EXcellent choice in engines) and there ya go. A real "body-off" restoration.

Would I do it? Nope, but I'd like to have a Toronado AND a Riviera of that time-frame. Two of my favorite GM cars. Nothing looked as hairy, yet svelt, to me as a '68 Toronado, and the Buick of the same vintage says "class" all the way. What a nice pair of garage-mates!

[BJM]

Guy,
I agree, this was a good time for GM style wise. Camaros, Corvettes, Rivieras, Eldorados, and the Toronado. They weren't afraid to lead, unlike in the past 20 years at GM. The Riviera had a different frame. The Eldorado and Toro had perimeter frames, and not as thick. The Riviera body would have to be modified too much to fit on the FWD version. I really want an AWD, but that too is beyond the scope of my abilities. Jay Leno sure has a nice Toronado but it's a lot easier to go to rear wheel drive conversion then the other way around.

[imported_55PackardGuy]

Different frame eh? Well, that's a whole different deal. I was led to believe by earlier posts that the frame differences were minor, and suspension differences major. Heck, just get a Toronado and be done with it! I remember the ads for those things back in the day--won the Pikes Peak Hill Climb more than once, I believe. Get one and go out there and re-create history. Yahoo! (yeah, I know, time, money, storage, etc. etc.)